Open FAC advice

[75]

I think, as others have said, you're getting it the wrong way around and the Open / Closed thing is not the issue.

Very simply, you need good reason to have a FAC for whatever it is conditioned for. So in order to get it conditioned for deer you need a good reason specifically for deer - your target use is not good reason for deer to be added. You need either stalks booked with a guide or ground you've got permission to shoot over. You won't get it conditioned for deer for the purposes of finding ground to shoot over - that's the wrong way around.

Under your current circumstances, I'd book a couple of stalks with a guide and provide these as evidence to vary your certificate to allow you to shoot deer and vermin (you never know when you'll come across a fox when stalking!). Go on a couple of paid stalks - it won't cost a lot in the grand scheme of things and you'll probably learn a bunch too.

The deer condition will almost certainly be granted on a closed basis ("over land approved by chief constable" etc). Don't worry about that yet. If you get permission and there's doubt over whether it's been cleared previously then check with police then and ask them to clear it if not. Loads of land is cleared though so honestly, worry about that bit later. Find the permission first - that's the hard bit.

Good luck!

 

[Island]

Thank you for the advice so far.

This is just a theoretical question but if I was invited to accompany a friend who has an open ticket and I had a closed ticket would I then be allowed to shoot on land that hadn’t been police checked as the person with the open ticket had checked it?

I know it’s a lot of questions but I don’t want to make any mistakes which harm my licence or looks bad on other shooters.

Just to muddy the waters....the answer to your question highlighted above is both "yes" and "no", depending on circumstances.

If you were to apply for, and were granted, a deer / vermin condition on your cert that was issued with territorial conditions (i.e. a closed cert) then you could not shoot your own rifle on his land as you are constrained by the conditions on your own license.

If, however, you were to borrow their rifle in their presence (under Section 11A, the "estate rifle" clause) then you could legally shoot the land as you would be constrained under the conditions of his/her license (S11A, SS(4): "The third condition is that the borrower's possession and use of the rifle or shot gun complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the lender's certificate under this Act.")

No one ever said that the law had to make sense....

 

[Hornet]

As others have politely pointed out, you need to show good reason to have your certificate varied and have deer/vermin included, I assume you don't currently have ground to shoot over of your own, so get a couple of stalks under your belt, book again and ask for the condition to be added to your certificate, meanwhile, do everything you can to secure some ground, it's not easy, but perseverance will pay off, best of luck.

 

[bottletopbill]

If you have prove that you can shoot on other's land then tell them this is why you would like a open ticket.


My mate had 22lr closed ticket i explained he had been out with me as a mentor he knew all the correct procedure and was safe.

He then worded it the same as my licence in his application and got it open straight away now owns a 6.5

WORD it THE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION SHALL BE USED FOR SHOOTING ANY LAWFUL QUARRY AND FOR ZEROING/PRATICE ON RANGES, OR LAND OVER WHICH THE HOLDER HAS LAWFUL AUTHORITY TO SHOOT.

good luck

 

[Tim.243]

If you have prove that you can shoot on other's land then tell them this is why you would like a open ticket.


My mate had 22lr closed ticket i explained he had been out with me as a mentor he knew all the correct procedure and was safe.

He then worded it the same as my licence in his application and got it open straight away now owns a 6.5

WORD it THE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION SHALL BE USED FOR SHOOTING ANY LAWFUL QUARRY AND FOR ZEROING/PRATICE ON RANGES, OR LAND OVER WHICH THE HOLDER HAS LAWFUL AUTHORITY TO SHOOT.

good luck

How long did it take to open up your ticket Bill?

 

[sy247]

You could book some paid stalking in the future which would be good reason

 

[bottletopbill]

Hi my first ticket was opened in two years as i had completed a humane dispatch course with BDS sorry still on my first ticket

But still a novice

 

[Bowland blades]

As others have politely pointed out, you need to show good reason to have your certificate varied and have deer/vermin included, I assume you don't currently have ground to shoot over of your own, so get a couple of stalks under your belt, book again and ask for the condition to be added to your certificate, meanwhile, do everything you can to secure some ground, it's not easy, but perseverance will pay off, best of luck.

Why are folks so obsessed with owning ground ? rather renting it to be fair ( which is what most are doing ) . You will certainly get more successful deerstalking done guesting around the country and for more species and even dare i say it Less cost ! At least when your known and trusted . I see some folks throwing thousands at ground where your lucky to get ten sustainable beasts a year in areas an hour to an hour and a half away big towns / cities .
Then they windge and whine about how little they get at the game dealers for their efforts.

 

[Hornet]

Why are folks so obsessed with owning ground ? rather renting it to be fair ( which is what most are doing ) . You will certainly get more successful deerstalking done guesting around the country and for more species and even dare i say it Less cost ! At least when your known and trusted . I see some folks throwing thousands at ground where your lucky to get ten sustainable beasts a year in areas an hour to an hour and a half away big towns / cities .
Then they windge and whine about how little they get at the game dealers for their efforts.

I did not mention "owning" any ground did I? Just to reiterate, ground/ permission to shoot on! Hence me me advising the OP to get out and try to secure some shooting land, hope this clears up any confusion, regards, Hornet.

 

[Bowland blades]

I did not mention "owning" any ground did I? Just to reiterate, ground/ permission to shoot on! Hence me me advising the OP to get out and try to secure some shooting land, hope this clears up any confusion, regards, Hornet.

owning ground bad choice of words i really should have said " having a lease" hardly anyone gets stalking on land that isn't owned by them . I have had just two little bit like that for free and it wasnt truly free just no cash ever changed hands . Future bookings are how many keep their FAC and deer conditions at renewals i still have land to do that with .

 

[Polar_Bear]

Just wanted to say another thank you for all the great advice. I haven’t replied to each individual post but I have read them all many times and taken onboard what has been said.

 

[Heym SR20]

Not a lot to add but

1) Individual Forces and indeed individual FEOS have different views and ways of doing things.

2) For deer stalking and/or vermin control get some practical experience - book some guided stalking and use the estate rifle if needs be.

Get as much training as you can with well experienced mentors. There are a number of stalking training type courses now on offer.

Sign up to do your DSC1.

3) There is a very big difference in the eyes of the Police between shooting on a range under the close supervision of a Range Safety Officer, and taking a rifle out into the woods after a deer.

On a range everything is controlled, rifles are not loaded until instructed. Shots are into a known backdrop. Lots of eyes look for issues etc etc.

When hunting - its just you making the decision.

4) when you apply to have you conditions changed you want to apply from a position showing experience and expertise, and a really good understanding of safety considerations etc.

I posted a paper on New Zealand hunting accidents a few weeks back. They had a very high rate of hunting accidents where the hunter was certain that he was shooting at a deer, only to then find that he had just shot another hunter. And it happens even with experienced hunters. Your mind wants to play tricks with you. You are looking for a deer, that white patch looks like a deers bum …….,

In the UK we have very few hunting accidents - and long may that continue. In part this is due to high bar set by the licencing authorities and also a high bar set by others who will be your referees.

 

[sy247]

Not a lot to add but

1) Individual Forces and indeed individual FEOS have different views and ways of doing things.

2) For deer stalking and/or vermin control get some practical experience - book some guided stalking and use the estate rifle if needs be.

Get as much training as you can with well experienced mentors. There are a number of stalking training type courses now on offer.

Sign up to do your DSC1.

3) There is a very big difference in the eyes of the Police between shooting on a range under the close supervision of a Range Safety Officer, and taking a rifle out into the woods after a deer.

On a range everything is controlled, rifles are not loaded until instructed. Shots are into a known backdrop. Lots of eyes look for issues etc etc.

When hunting - its just you making the decision.

4) when you apply to have you conditions changed you want to apply from a position showing experience and expertise, and a really good understanding of safety considerations etc.

I posted a paper on New Zealand hunting accidents a few weeks back. They had a very high rate of hunting accidents where the hunter was certain that he was shooting at a deer, only to then find that he had just shot another hunter. And it happens even with experienced hunters. Your mind wants to play tricks with you. You are looking for a deer, that white patch looks like a deers bum …….,

In the UK we have very few hunting accidents - and long may that continue. In part this is due to high bar set by the licencing authorities and also a high bar set by others who will be your referees.

I agree with the points you have made.

I am very much against bringing in mandatory hoops to jump through to get a FAC for hunting (or any other shoooting discipine for that matter). I don't think the DSC1 should be mandatory but it does indicate to the FEO that an applicant has met a basic level of competence and has invested time and money in training and passing a serious of tests. Using a rifle on the range for target shooting and for hunting are very different in terms of risk profile and there is a far greater level of risk in my view with the latter.

 

[MAH]

I would like to do this so that I can start approaching landowners for permission to help with vermin and be

I think you misunderstand the process, a key part of which is the requirement for you to demonstrate " good resson".
So you would need the landowners permission to shoot on their land before applying for a variation of the conditions on your certificate.

My guess is that, if you only have one "permission", then the vermin shooting condition will specifically name that land and thus still be a closed certificate.

M

 

[bottletopbill]

Totally agree about DSC1 not being mandatory and should not be a part of a FAC .

Now done my DSC1 as i wanted to after many years.. But I would encourage every one to do it great fun and great learning wished i had done it years ago now,

 

[Heym SR20]

I agree with the points you have made.

I am very much against bringing in mandatory hoops to jump through to get a FAC for hunting (or any other shoooting discipine for that matter). I don't think the DSC1 should be mandatory but it does indicate to the FEO that an applicant has met a basic level of competence and has invested time and money in training and passing a serious of tests. Using a rifle on the range for target shooting and for hunting are very different in terms of risk profile and there is a far greater level of risk in my view with the latter.

Agreed, but I would suggest that having some form of test / examination does rather create a level playing field and a common standard. Trouble is that rather than it being seen as an education and passing of knowledge, it very quickly gets reduced to a tick box exercise to pass the test.

When I did my DSC1 at the turn of the century it was a 4 day course with a huge amount of interaction and discussion between the lecturers and participants. It was a proper education.

Comments from many is that it’s typically now - here are all the questions and answers - just learn them.

 

[Tim.243]

Totally agree about DSC1 not being mandatory and should not be a part of a FAC .

Now done my DSC1 as i wanted to after many years.. But I would encourage every one to do it great fun and great learning wished i had done it years ago now,

What stopped you doing it years ago Bill as you know anyone can do it.

 

[sy247]

I enjoyed my DSC1 and got a lot from it. I did it in 2013 and it was a 3 day course I think from memory.

 

[MAH]

I feel like asking them can be painting a target on your back, if you know what I mean.

That's an interesting statement, and prompted two thoughts for me

1. In my 40 plus years of holding a certificate in Cheshire I've always had a positive experience with the various FEO, FLOs.

2. However, on the flip side.
In a hypothetically scenario, were, a certificate holder hadn't read the various documents published online by the Home Office, (those that describe the Firearms Law, guidance on the process, security, the responsibility of certificate holders etc) then an FEO may become concerned by a nieve question which raises concerns about the suitability of the certificate holder.

I have read the documents, but I'm no expert, so if I wanted to ask a question to clarify some detail, then I wouldn't hesitate.

M

 

[bottletopbill]

Just kept putting it of as I thought I could never past the exam .
As I wasted my school years as I got nearer fifteen years old and I could leave school.
Sat there one day an decided I needed to do a extra year so had to work extra hard and have done ever since.
This is why I say if I can pass this any one can to show others they can do it and don't be put off . Go for it