That’s because it was posted by the CPSA in October 2022 in a vain attempt to save lead shot and one can just about forgive a Clay shooting organisation for not knowing that 24gm or less is suitable for live quarry shooting however all that factual information on the thread that was closed is still valid. So why bother to repeat it all?
Lead Ban- UK Reach 2nd Consultation
- Thread starter cjm1066
- Start date
That’s because it was posted by the CPSA in October 2022 in a vain attempt to save lead shot and one can just about forgive a Clay shooting organisation for not knowing that 24gm or less is suitable for live quarry shooting however all that factual information on the thread that was closed is still valid. So why bother to repeat it all?
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
There isn’t any evidence of that or even damage to the environment from lead but that won’t stop them
Found in the same place that is referenced when
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
As regards some of the recent comments the following background might help:
There would be no review of lead ammunition by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) if it wasn’t for Brexit because the government needed to create new laws on the regulation of chemicals so that the trade in chemicals between GB and EU could continue (Northern Ireland trade being covered under the NI Protocol)
The HSE was tasked as the agency responsible for the implementation of the regulations (called UK REACH) and in 2021 it was announced that the first two substances to be reviewed would be lead in ammunition and certain chemicals in tattoo inks: emulating similar reviews in the EU.
The approach the HSE has taken, and is taking with many other reviews, is looking at the risks and investigating where it is feasible to reduce those risks to a ‘nil or negligible’ level.
The HSE does not create laws, it can only make recommendations and submit these to the Defra secretary of state for consideration.
If BASC has concerns that any legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.
How to respond to the consultation
The survey response form contains mostly technical and confusing questions. However, there is a shortcut and it will take less than five minutes of your time.
Just skip to the last section of the survey and in ‘general comments’ tell them, in your own words, what you think about a lead ban based on your own shooting interests and experience.
Click the link below to complete the 'general comments' section of the HSE survey response form:
There would be no review of lead ammunition by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) if it wasn’t for Brexit because the government needed to create new laws on the regulation of chemicals so that the trade in chemicals between GB and EU could continue (Northern Ireland trade being covered under the NI Protocol)
The HSE was tasked as the agency responsible for the implementation of the regulations (called UK REACH) and in 2021 it was announced that the first two substances to be reviewed would be lead in ammunition and certain chemicals in tattoo inks: emulating similar reviews in the EU.
The approach the HSE has taken, and is taking with many other reviews, is looking at the risks and investigating where it is feasible to reduce those risks to a ‘nil or negligible’ level.
The HSE does not create laws, it can only make recommendations and submit these to the Defra secretary of state for consideration.
If BASC has concerns that any legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.
How to respond to the consultation
The survey response form contains mostly technical and confusing questions. However, there is a shortcut and it will take less than five minutes of your time.
Just skip to the last section of the survey and in ‘general comments’ tell them, in your own words, what you think about a lead ban based on your own shooting interests and experience.
Click the link below to complete the 'general comments' section of the HSE survey response form:
UK REACH - Public Consultation on Lead in Ammunition - Health and Safety Executive - Citizen Space
Find and participate in consultations run by the Health and Safety Executive
consultations.hse.gov.uk
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
Reach was already a Eu compliance game to which we could easily have ignored and frankly should have
There won’t be an Eu wide ban or attempt at compliance as some nations will simply ignore it like the French and Poles!
CookM
Well-Known Member
Tobacco not banned?Amazing out of all the what thousands and thousands of hazards substance HSE considered lead in ammunition to be top of the list to considernot the unregulated chemicals in vapes. I wonder how they decided what first two substances to look at.
Several in there.
CookM
Well-Known Member
A male nurse in RDE told me he would ban sugar over cocaine,it puts more people in hospital for as many conditions as you like.
I was in plastics ward, and he was constantly dealing with people having toes off or tissue debridement.
Had that,it's nasty.
Not many in for lead related illness l could see.
I was in plastics ward, and he was constantly dealing with people having toes off or tissue debridement.
Had that,it's nasty.
Not many in for lead related illness l could see.
new a dentist who would certainly agree with your nurse, blamed sugar with a passion for tooth decay especially in children soft drinks and sweets then now vapes are being targeted at children with no regulation on what is in them. Millions and millions consume sugar and now vapes yet at the HSE meeting they said i know lead in ammunition is the very first dangerous substances we must look at
This. Absolutely. And yet, yet, yet again when asked BASC say that the eminently sensible "New Zealand model" when suggested as a template for the UK are told that "it isn't suitable". In which model a water body is defined as more than three metres wide.
Yeah...right...not suitable for supporting the argument deployed by the "big bag boy" and the now re-named British Game Alliance that what is shot goes into the food chain. Because I'd argue that this model, this New Zealand model works for pretty much all of us. Oh....but not for the "big bag boys". So everybody else gets thrown under the bus by BASC not (it its call for non-toxic) using this model as its benchmark.
So here it is the "New Zealand model" that BASC said is "not suitable". The key points are .410" exempted, ALL hunters of upland game (all quail and pheasants) are exempted. That's because research has shown these birds are not affected because the shot "in the uplands" is so widely dispersed*, ALL hunters who pass the "200m rule test" are exempted (see below).
* The exact words used in the rules.
200 Metre Test:
If you're hunting waterfowl (swans, geese, ducks and pukeko), MORE THAN 200 metres from a water body, which is taken as any stream, river, lake or tidal area, "more than 3m wide," you can continue to use lead shot, if you wish. Lead shot that falls on land away from water is not a significant risk to waterfowl
If you are within 200m of a waterway, over 3 metres in width, and while upland game bird hunting with lead and encounter a duck, then either don't shoot at it with lead or cover your risk by using only non-toxic shot
If you are hunting BOTH upland AND waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3m in width, then you must use ONLY non-toxic shot
If you are hunting waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3 metres wide and you are in possession of BOTH lead and non-toxic ammunition you will be prosecuted. If your intention was to hunt upland game later with lead shot or to hunt waterfowl with lead later beyond the 200m rule, you need to be completely unambiguous about this. For instance, by keeping the lead ammunition back in the vehicle when you are hunting waterfowl within the 200m zone
If you hunt in a tidal area, then the 200m rule applies from the Mean High Water Mark. So you may be 500 metres away from the water's edge at low tide, but this is not a defence. Similarly, if you're hunting next to floodwaters it is the edge of the floodwater at that time that you measure the 200m from.
Non Toxic Shot Regulations | Fish and Game
In New Zealand it is compulsory to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl with any gun using a 10 or 12 gauge cartridge for all areas,
fishandgame.org.nz
SO I WILL NOW ASK HERE PUBLICLY AND ASK IF BASC WILL ANSWER DIRECTLY HERE. WILL THEY NOW, BASC, IN THIS SECOND ROUND, LOBBY (AND PUBLICLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY STATE SUCH ON THEIR WEBSITE) FOR THIS NEW ZEALAND MODEL TO BE ADOPTED HERE IN THE UK?
Indeed the New Zealand website ends with these words:
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Sweden have new rules close to the New Sealand ones but the water body are not specified so you (may) need to use non lead shot then you get close to a lake, stream, gill, dike or marchland. The rules are so vague we need someone to get in to court to really see how the law are affecting us. Lead are still legal to be bought and used for land species as grouse, hares, fox goose.
Morkai
Well-Known Member
Its lack of education and self control where diet causes issues, not sugar itself.
new a dentist who would certainly agree with your nurse, blamed sugar with a passion for tooth decay especially in children soft drinks and sweets then now vapes are being targeted at children with no regulation on what is in them. Millions and millions consume sugar and now vapes yet at the HSE meeting they said i know lead in ammunition is the very first dangerous substances we must look at
Sugary sweets and drinks don't do as much damage as they'd have you believe years ago, that sugar dissolves and washes away from your mouth relatively quickly. It's things like bread, crisps etc that stick and sit in your teeth that are worse.
Vapes were targeted years ago by the EU and fell under the TPD which is regulated.
Just been having the odd thought about game shooting. We all know that some birds get pricked whatever we shoot them with. Those shot with lead in non vital spots go on to survive.
What about steel? Steel rusts when in contact with fluids generally and therefore is less humane as blood poisoning could be the result of rust.
What about steel? Steel rusts when in contact with fluids generally and therefore is less humane as blood poisoning could be the result of rust.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Lead dissolves / oxidises when in contact with body fluids in the same way that steel rusts.
Yes but which is the most destructive, thinking of millions of tons of scrap steel.
Worth watching
Panorama - Teenage Vaping: What’s the Harm?
Rachel Burden investigates the youth vaping phenomenon.
www.bbc.co.uk
CookM
Well-Known Member
I was educated in the 70/80's ,we were told too much is bad.
Since then the whole populace has had better education, but yes you are right the self control part has fallen down a well.
People seem inclined a long time back to shove rubbish in their children's faces to shut them up.
We got sweets only as a treat,not a part of the everyday diet.
My nan had a a sweet tin l remember,two each!!
When you understand steel shot well and what to use and not use , ranges etc ... Steel can in many instances be better than lead in my experience ( as regards lethality).For the last 15 years or so i have been shooting almost exclusively steel . Its especially good on foxes ! It takes a little time to learn it that is all
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
You need to look at the biochemistry within the body. Heavy metals have a pretty negative effect on how the immune system works to combat unusual proteins. The levels of heavy metals that correlate to disease are at the nano gram level.
We don’t yet know exactly how the heavy metals mess up the immune system but there is a lot of ongoing work in this area - most is happening in the US, and a lot is as yet unpublished as treatments for cancers and other infectious disease are being developed based on removing excess heavy metals and the early results are very promising.
There was quite a bit of work on the effect of lead in petrol causing cancers back in the 1950’s but it was rather pushed to one side - much more money in chemotherapy and the oil industry.
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