Electric Car Debate

[McKenzie]

Actually I’ve been to Wick twice in the last 3 months but more often to Inverness.

Typical site visit is.
Leaving just south of Motherwell first stop is Ballinluig Motor Grill. Second stop is at North Gateway Cafe. If the jobs are around / between Inverness and Aberdeen I might catch a lunch in Inverness or maybe one of the garden centres in between, before heading over to Aberdeen where I fuel up before heading down to Forfar for an overnight stay.
Roughly 12-13hrs all told with 20minute breaks.

If heading up to Wick I recommend stopping at the cafe at Evelix, (might be a wee stop in Tain but I wonder why) order a plate of scampi and chips and you get 13pieces of scampi!
The run up to Wick has been about 7&1/2hrs maybe 8. Given I work an 8&3/4hr day the remainder is taken as a rest as the drive is knackering. (Kudos to those who travel to stalk up there.)

Last run was 760miles as I came back down the east coast, so it does almost equate to John O’Groats to Lands End.

I’m not sure the company would be grateful if I wasted time waiting for a charger to come free or trying to find one that’s working, and it would bore the pants off of me!

Sounds like the sort of driving I do a lot of too.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Wow... that's some driving.

I think my point was that different cars are suitable for different applications... I have an EV and my annual mileage is 2000, so it works well for me.

But obviously, it's far from ideal for your circumstances.

Hardly worth having one eh? just use taxis as they would work out much cheaper. But different strokes etc.

 

[Morkai]

I have an EV and my annual mileage is 2000, so it works well for me.

Why the hell did you opt for a compnay car if you only do 2000 miles?

Take the car allowance instead and bank it, no point paying for a company car.

 

[markj1]

Hardly worth having one eh? just use taxis as they would work out much cheaper. But different strokes etc.

True. Living in London, I do use mostly public transport (bus, train, underground, and taxis). I keep the car for those journeys that I can't make by public transport (a day out at NRA Bisley, for example).

 

[markj1]

Why the hell did you opt for a compnay car if you only do 2000 miles?

I had a personally owned ICE car anyway, replacing it with a new EV on a business lease was a good move financially due to the tax incentives.

Take the car allowance instead and bank it, no point paying for a company car.

If I do that then I get taxed at 40%... that's why the EV works out so cheap for people on salary sacrifice scheme - the BIK tax is currently only 2%. It would be rude not to.....

 

[Morkai]

If I do that I get taxed at 40%... that's why the EV works out so cheap for people on salary sacrifice scheme - the BIK tax is currently only 2%. It would be rude not to.....

Yes, but how much are you paying for the car every month?

We have the green car scheme with salary sacrifice through Tusker or someone.

 

[Freeforester]

True, but it's not the full picture....

The majority of new EVs here in the UK (mine included) were supplied via a business lease under a salary sacrifice scheme due to the very significant tax benefits.

This means that for business users such as myself the depreciation has already been factored into the monthly payments.

My EV is on a 4 year lease, at the end of which it goes back to the finance provider who will most likely auction it off.

If anything, it's good news for second hand buyers who will be able to bag one for a great price as these cars come of their leases and flood the second-hand csr market with cheap and heavily depreciation EVs.

The last sentence remains to be seen, but the market will eventually find its floor, even if it might be in the cellar. Pity the businesses, unless they too are benefitting from the tax wheeze - someone somewhere along the chain is losing a fortune.

 

[markj1]

The last sentence remains to be seen, but the market will eventually find its floor, even if it might be in the cellar. Pity the businesses, unless they too are benefitting from the tax wheeze - someone somewhere along the chain is losing a fortune.

To be fair, this isn't entirely a new phenomena.

Over the years I've bought several fleet-type cars that came off a business lease for very little money. What used to happen is that the classic fleet cars - Mondeos, Vectras, etc with basic spec - were supplied in large numbers when new and then flooded the market at the end of the lease. I remember walking along rows and rows of 2 and 3 years old cars of the same model and similar basic spec, being sold at well below 50% of their RRP when new.

As for making a loss along the chain - not really, because the finance providers who supply the cars to businesses, rarely pay the RRP anyway. They buy the cars in bulk directly from the manufacturer and pay for them well below what a private buyer would have paid at the showroom (and they often get a very good deal on low spec or undesirable colours etc). When these cars hit the second-hand market, private buyers go "wow" at the low price, especially when compared to a similar but higher-spec model on the dealer's forecourt that started its life with a private buyer who paid the full price for it.

But the truth is that no one made a loss here, they buy them cheap, make a profit on the finance deal, then sell them cheap (and this is even more so when the finance provider is a subsidiary of the car manufacturer).

 

[Freeforester]

Who knew??



when the eskimos start using them, they’ll be fine in the cold weather….

 

[LuckyEddie]

To be fair, this isn't entirely a new phenomena.

Over the years I've bought several fleet-type cars that came off a business lease for very little money. What used to happen is that the classic fleet cars - Mondeos, Vectras, etc with basic spec - were supplied in large numbers when new and then flooded the market at the end of the lease. I remember walking along rows and rows of 2 and 3 years old cars of the same model and similar basic spec, being sold at well below 50% of their RRP when new.

As for making a loss along the chain - not really, because the finance providers who supply the cars to businesses, rarely pay the RRP anyway. They buy the cars in bulk directly from the manufacturer and pay for them well below what a private buyer would have paid at the showroom (and they often get a very good deal on low spec or undesirable colours etc). When these cars hit the second-hand market, private buyers go "wow" at the low price, especially when compared to a similar but higher-spec model on the dealer's forecourt that started its life with a private buyer who paid the full price for it.

But the truth is that no one made a loss here, they buy them cheap, make a profit on the finance deal, then sell them cheap (and this is even more so when the finance provider is a subsidiary of the car manufacturer).

Trouble is the market depends on the private buyer as well as business leasing.

So anyone who has bought a high end EV in the last couple of years is already at a loss.
Both Tesla and Porsche have both discounted their cars meaning people who have bought recently are already in negative equity.

 

[markj1]

Trouble is the market depends on the private buyer as well as business leasing.

So anyone who has bought a high end EV in the last couple of years is already at a loss.
Both Tesla and Porsche have both discounted their cars meaning people who have bought recently are already in negative equity.

View attachment 336193

I fully agree.

I have never bought a new car outright in my life, the depreciation on a new car is horrendous, you have to be very rich to afford it, and I am not...

EVs even more so than ICE cars.

I have a new EV on a business lease - I wouldn't dream of buying a new EV with my own money, nor do I recommend to anyone to do that.

Over the years I was able to pick up a few 2-3 years' old cars at a very good price. Most cars will devalue to 50% of RRP within 3 years, but if you know which models depreciate more than others than you can bag a deal and pay as little as 30% of the price of the car when new - on a 3 years old car.

My advice to would-be EV buyers is to wait until these EVs start coming off their business leases. They will then flood the market, just like the Mondeos and Vectras of old.

As for the Porsche Taycan... the chap that bought it new on PCP is an idgit but whoever buys is second-hand will get a cracking deal.

So it's not all bad news... it actually makes EVs much more affordable to second-hand buyers.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

I spent 50 years designing the bloody things "tin boxes with four wheels" and I am ashamed at the prices being asked for a collection of supplier delivered bits that are so similar from a Focus to an Audi A6 you would really not believe it as they the suppliers simplify the designs to work on all cars to save on unnecessary redesign of the wheel as the lowest bidder usually gets the contract.

 

[Foxyboy43]

No comment required really except only one burst into flames…

 

[Ade8mm]

It is not just electric vehicles.

The wind farm grift is now imploding too. Massive outflow of investment in the sector as investors wise up to it being is a complete non-starter.
A net detractor both financially and Carbon-wise
It is an environmental catastrophe. When it comes to "renewables" wreaking havoc on the environment wind turbines have stiff competition

All this rubbish completely relies on subsidies and grants (other peoples money)

Tesla would be worth shite were it not for subsidies . It is over-valued at a mere fraction of the current price.

Drax, the oh so wonderful "Green energy" company who import (on ships across the Atlantic no less) previously dried (at a great emissions cost) wood-chips to burn in the UK just so the UK can tell the World we are "meeting our targets" by ticking a box. A great example of exporting the perceived issue overseas

Apologists will say (and they have to me ) "Ah but. It is a by-product of the timber industry"
I say "OK, so use it where it falls"

Drax garnered £885 million from tax-payers in 2021 by way of subsidies yet issued gross profits in the same year of £ 121.5 MILLION
(For the numerically challenged that is £7.635million profit that UK tax payers have generated) for Drax in order for the UK to tick a "net zero" target box.
Fair enough. It is not illegal for them to game the system- which is exactly what they are doing.
And they still receive subsidies. Work that one out.

Forgive me for thinking something is massively wrong here

We are clearly getting mugged-off just so Whitehall apparatchiks can tick a box.

Ade

 

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmm. The following sounds a tad similar to certain european manufacturers fiddling their emissions….

Tesla’s secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

About a decade ago, Tesla rigged the dashboard readouts in its electric cars to provide “rosy” projections of how far owners can drive before needing to recharge, a source told Reuters.

www.reuters.com

 

[markj1]

Hmmm. The following sounds a tad similar to certain european manufacturers fiddling their emissions….

Tesla’s secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

About a decade ago, Tesla rigged the dashboard readouts in its electric cars to provide “rosy” projections of how far owners can drive before needing to recharge, a source told Reuters.

www.reuters.com

This isn't new - all car manufacturers treat customers' complaints as a closely-guarded secret - and even more so reliability data.

The manufacturer will know exactly how many warranty claims they have, but good luck getting any statical data from them.

If you want one example, Google "Mercedes-Benz" and "Rear Subframe" - they corrode from the inside, and it's potentially very dangerous - but no one knows how many have been replaced FOC by the manufacturer on cars up to 15 years old. It's probably in the thousands, if not more, but the manufacturer won't tell you how many. In fact, in most cases, the first a car owner will hear about this issue is when their car fails the MOT.

Car manufacturers do not like to share this sort of data. Tesla are as guilty as all the others.

 

[Foxyboy43]

This isn't new - all car manufacturers treat customers' complaints as a closely-guarded secret - and even more so reliability data.

The manufacturer will know exactly how many warranty claims they have, but good luck getting any statical data from them.

If you want one example, Google "Mercedes-Benz" and "Rear Subframe" - they corrode from the inside, and it's potentially very dangerous - but no one knows how many have been replaced FOC by the manufacturer on cars up to 15 years old. It's probably in the thousands, if not more, but the manufacturer won't tell you how many. In fact, in most cases, the first a car owner will hear about this issue is when their car fails the MOT.

Car manufacturers do not like to share this sort of data. Tesla are as guilty as all the others.

And there’s me thinking it was a simple case of deception or perhaps even fraud…..

 

[markj1]

And there’s me thinking it was a simple case of deception or perhaps even fraud…..

Deception, certainly (not sure about fraud), but they're all at it....

BTW, Fire Opal Red is another one... it's a Mercedes Benz paint code, the paint is defective , has been for a period of about 10 years, they have been offering complete bare metal respray to customers who complain... but keep it all very hush hush.

 

[markj1]

No comment required really except only one burst into flames…

Wow computer animation has advanced since the days I was playing video games.... very impressive CGI (or possibly even AI?).

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Deception, certainly (not sure about fraud), but they're all at it....

BTW, Fire Opal Red is another one... it's a Mercedes Benz paint code, the paint is defective , has been for a period of about 10 years, they have been offering complete bare metal respray to customers who complain... but keep it all very hush hush.

Mankowitz from Hamburg I think is a big paint supplier to the car industry and I heard many bad comments about their quality paints.