Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Interesting - different legislation over here in NI but I believe that the Police have not the power in law to make such a demand.
Open ticket
- Thread starter dinglejacket
- Start date
Freightdog
Well-Known Member
I think this is more to do with a club requirement than an individual requirement when it comes to insurance. Mine also states;Interesting - different legislation over here in NI but I believe that the Police have not the power in law to make such a demand.
'The Firearms and ammunition shall be used for Target Shooting, and only whilst a member of
......... Club on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of fifirearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.'
ie, the club should have adequate insurance, not you, this is part of the criteria for approval of a shooting club.
Standard condition for range use and it is talking about the range, not the shooter.“and sufficient insurance”
When did it fall within Licensing Authorities purview to require this? Just curious….
There’s a sticky at the top of this section that would have answered your question and avoided another thread about open or closed tickets (like the last one a couple of weeks ago, and the one not long before that etc.)
FAQ: Do I have an Open or Closed Certificate?
As this comes up quite a bit here is the difference between a 'closed' ('more restrictive') certificate and an 'open' (or 'less restrictive') certificate. Note that it is dependent on the conditions PER rifle. It is possible to have a certificate that is open for one rifle and closed for...
www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Yep I get that thanks and such insurance is presumably an understandable requirement for any HO approved registered club and if so approved then that insurance must have been in place so why put it on the gun owners cert when membership of said club provides such cover?
The Op says:-
”All my firearms are "conditioned" for target use, the specified rimfire above I can shoot over any land where I have permission and sufficient insurance“. Again - I do not think the police have such powers - certainly over here where many are neither club nor association members and thus have no insurance.
Just curious and not wishing to hijack the thread..
I suspect he is conflating his conditionsYep I get that thanks and such insurance is presumably an understandable requirement for any HO approved registered club and if so approved then that insurance must have been in place so why put it on the gun owners cert when membership of said club provides such cover?
The Op says:-
”All my firearms are "conditioned" for target use, the specified rimfire above I can shoot over any land where I have permission and sufficient insurance“. Again - I do not think the police have such powers - certainly over here where many are neither club nor association members and thus have no insurance.
Just curious and not wishing to hijack the thread..
Freightdog
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I just had a re-read, you mean Cogswell's post about his RF condition including insurance for vermin use.... I agree, I have no idea what that's about, but then my stalking rifle was initially conditioned for range use only!Yep I get that thanks and such insurance is presumably an understandable requirement for any HO approved registered club and if so approved then that insurance must have been in place so why put it on the gun owners cert when membership of said club provides such cover?
The Op says:-
”All my firearms are "conditioned" for target use, the specified rimfire above I can shoot over any land where I have permission and sufficient insurance“. Again - I do not think the police have such powers - certainly over here where many are neither club nor association members and thus have no insurance.
Just curious and not wishing to hijack the thread..
These things get put in the conditions sometimes as the feo thinks it's a good idea or reasonable, which in this case you could argue is true. If you don't agree you just have to phone and question it, that's what I did, and if you present a reasonable argument they will generally comply and change it. I also had a specific RF conditioned for vermin, but I had slots for more and asked them to allow 'all' of them for vermin & target, which they did. I can now lug my 12lb bench rifle around after rabbits if I want!
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Yep and perhaps a perfect example of what the “Taking the P” thread is illustrating -Sorry, I just had a re-read, you mean Cogswell's post about his RF condition including insurance for vermin use.... I agree, I have no idea what that's about, but then my stalking rifle was initially conditioned for range use only!
These things get put in the conditions sometimes as the feo thinks it's a good idea or reasonable, which in this case you could argue is true. If you don't agree you just have to phone and question it, that's what I did, and if you present a reasonable argument they will generally comply and change it. I also had a specific RF conditioned for vermin, but I had slots for more and asked them to allow 'all' of them for vermin & target, which they did. I can now lug my 12lb bench rifle around after rabbits if I want!
“As an important aside Mr Loophole is absolutely correct in this quote:-
"But what we need to do is look at what Parliament intended to achieve when it passed this legislation. What was the spirit of this legislation?"
Increasingly often the authorities who administer/enforce legislation choose to ignore this fundamental “spirit” to suit their own ends.”.
I really despair when I read threads like this.
Not that the OP has asked the question, but that the system has developed to allow so much interpretation, subjectivity, and local agendas to influence decision making. The fact that different contributors have different experiences reveals how bad the system is. Insurance as a prerequisite to obtaining a FAC. Happy to be corrected, but what piece of legislation or HO guidance is that in?
Why should someone who is applying for a licence in say Penrith, have to satisfy a markedly different set of locally decided criteria/interpretation than someone who is applying under the same system in Penarth.
The system is in dire need of review and what do the HO and College of Policing do? Decide that someone (a current FLM in reality) who is in the (failing) system, is best placed to lead any programme of change.
It probably meets the recommendations of the Plymouth’s coroners prevention of future deaths report - but in reality - doubt much will be changing.
Not that the OP has asked the question, but that the system has developed to allow so much interpretation, subjectivity, and local agendas to influence decision making. The fact that different contributors have different experiences reveals how bad the system is. Insurance as a prerequisite to obtaining a FAC. Happy to be corrected, but what piece of legislation or HO guidance is that in?
Why should someone who is applying for a licence in say Penrith, have to satisfy a markedly different set of locally decided criteria/interpretation than someone who is applying under the same system in Penarth.
The system is in dire need of review and what do the HO and College of Policing do? Decide that someone (a current FLM in reality) who is in the (failing) system, is best placed to lead any programme of change.
It probably meets the recommendations of the Plymouth’s coroners prevention of future deaths report - but in reality - doubt much will be changing.
Cogswell & Harrison
Well-Known Member
Being a newcomer I don't wish to appear to hi-jack the thread, just adding my personal situation to the "open closed" scenario. My FAC is in the post on its way back to me from my local office so I cannot quote either verbatim or photograph it but the insurance thing is definitely specified.
As an aside, it also says that the firearms shall be used or target shooting whilst a member of xxxxx clubs and on ranges suitable for the calibres providing adequate financial arrangements are in place to meet etc etc. The FLO know that I also shoot all my firearms at what you might call a pay-and-play range local to me, yes I am a member but it's not a club as such it's just that yearly membership gets you discounted & favorable rates. There is no club structure to this range only that it is an HO registered clay/rimfire/centrefire shooting centre, it is Police approved, an initial safety brief and competency check is done in addition to your licence inspection. Perhaps this is why the insurance is a requirement?
I have an outlook which avoids confrontation with authority. Shooting is my one and only passion and hobby now that my recently passed Labrador Bella is no longer with me so if a condition is not particularly onerous I accept it and move on.
As an aside, it also says that the firearms shall be used or target shooting whilst a member of xxxxx clubs and on ranges suitable for the calibres providing adequate financial arrangements are in place to meet etc etc. The FLO know that I also shoot all my firearms at what you might call a pay-and-play range local to me, yes I am a member but it's not a club as such it's just that yearly membership gets you discounted & favorable rates. There is no club structure to this range only that it is an HO registered clay/rimfire/centrefire shooting centre, it is Police approved, an initial safety brief and competency check is done in addition to your licence inspection. Perhaps this is why the insurance is a requirement?
I have an outlook which avoids confrontation with authority. Shooting is my one and only passion and hobby now that my recently passed Labrador Bella is no longer with me so if a condition is not particularly onerous I accept it and move on.
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
Your fac states a requirement for insurance ?
Really ?
Anyway thank god for Scotland
Every fac issued to me in the last 30 odd yrs is an open cert
Including my very first one
Afaik every cert issued in Scotland is open.
Really ?
Anyway thank god for Scotland
Every fac issued to me in the last 30 odd yrs is an open cert
Including my very first one
Afaik every cert issued in Scotland is open.
Dunno about now but my first one was limited to clubs and ground I had identified in my application.
Thank god we don't have this approved ground nonsense. And funnily enough there have been no disasters.
Please update us on the conditions when it lands.
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Interesting and again differing interpretation from another FEO/Licensing Authority?
I just wonder if you politely asked for details of insurance cover required and a list of Police Approved Insurers what their response would be.…
Sadly the more this much threatened community says and does nothing the more constraints we will have to endure.
I of course respect any individual right on how to respond to confrontation with respective Firearms Licensing authority but suggest you ask yourself a simple question -
“would I accept this approach from any other branch of government?”.
Firearms Licensing branches are no different from any other government licensing office - if in doubt or unhappy with their line then challenge it. One of the few remaining keystones of living in a democracy - use it or lose it!
Open and closed certificates are not really an issue, show you’ve gained experience and you’ve shot over various pieces of land and your certificate will het opened.
Mine was in under 18 months and coincided with me varying the certificate for my first 2 centrefires.
Mine was in under 18 months and coincided with me varying the certificate for my first 2 centrefires.
Do you have car insurance?Interesting and again differing interpretation from another FEO/Licensing Authority?
I just wonder if you politely asked for details of insurance cover required and a list of Police Approved Insurers what their response would be.…
Sadly the more this much threatened community says and does nothing the more constraints we will have to endure.
I of course respect any individual right on how to respond to confrontation with respective Firearms Licensing authority but suggest you ask yourself a simple question -
“would I accept this approach from any other branch of government?”.
Firearms Licensing branches are no different from any other government licensing office - if in doubt or unhappy with their line then challenge it. One of the few remaining keystones of living in a democracy - use it or lose it!
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Yep and so should you if you are carrying out the wishes of Parliament as recorded in Hansard and set in your respective country’s legislation. Unlike some Firearms Licensing authority’s back of an envelope “policy“ founded upon sweet you know what!
So you’ve accepted that you must have insurance from another branch of government then ?Yep and so should you if you are carrying out the wishes of Parliament as recorded in Hansard and set in your respective country’s legislation. Unlike some Firearms Licensing authority’s back of an envelope “policy“ founded upon sweet you know what!
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Practically all home owners have public Liability as a far higher level than any org has offered . There is an obvious reason why the FEO might be asking ( did all know about BASC training FEOs at some forces ?)
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