BASC launches register of competent deer stalkers

[Mike L]

why does it bother you so much?

 

[RF76]

1) If true, there is a very real question/concern in other thread as to why the DMQ qualifications have not met the criteria for being awarded the OfQual status, and will this become an issue for those that hold DMQ Certifications in the event any legislative changes are introduced with minimum standards that cite or favour one awarding body over another ?

2) The Register - It would have been common sense as an industry to have gathered round a table and devised a 'register' that would have supported all members across all platforms, and provided a very comprehensive register. But, as always it is either simply not possible, or those in various positions are incapable of working towards a greater good especially at a time when the need for open dialogue and cohesion within field sports is of paramount importance.

 

[Shabz]

Hilarious! “Hopefully” oh those damn English southerners! Will go!

What about the neighbours who don’t want to cull their deer?

In theory if you kill all the deer you get the trees away. In reality this is extremely hard to achieve. NT at Mar Lodge spent about £4 million over 25 years on deer culling to achieve low levels of tree regeneration, far higher levels of tree establishment would have been achieved with a fence at half the price.

Not saying either way is right or wrong, but you will protect public investment in trees more securely with a fence.

I don’t mind folk from (not necessarily English folk) the south of England controlling deer if the attend, preferably daily, and actually do the job.

Different sites need different approaches. I think you underestimate the cost of building and maintaining a deer fence. What about situations where fences aren’t an option? There’s a huge push for riparian planting at the moment. You can’t fence a floodplain.

 

[big ears]

I don't think you can say ANY money.
I know that there may still be some debate but wasn't the sum of up to £5,000 mentioned so as to separate those covering their costs from commercial enterprise which would require business insurance?

That’s what has been put out by BASC, however Zurich who are the insurers refute this and say that NO money should be earns.
It’s in a previous thread if you search for it.

I was asking if this has been resolved.

 

[big ears]

Hope the following helps:

1. It states that BASC are regularly asked by landowners for names of deer managers. How many times in the last 12 months has this happened?

It's not something that we’ve kept a record of but at least 12 separate enquiries including 3 large institutional landowners and the rest foresters and private landowners. So at least 1 a month.

2. It states the fantastic insurance that BASC members have. Has the issue of the insurance company not covering anyone making any money from the sale of venison been cleared up?

Here is the relevant text from our insurance advice on BASC website:

The BASC policy only covers recreational activities, however, we recognise that some members will take a small payment in cash or in kind as a result of their recreational activity. In most cases this payment, such as it is, will barely cover expenses; never the less it’s important that members are clear on when the BASC policy will protect them and when or if they need additional cover. Indemnity under the BASC members policy includes the activities of members engaging in recreational shooting activities who make a commercial gain from the sale of meat or other small income derived from such recreational shooting activities, provided this is not their primary source of income.

However, if you are formally engaged by a commercial shoot to attend on specific days to undertake a specific task such as beating, picking up or loading, then you will be employed by the shoot and covered under the shoots Employer Liability cover.

If you hire yourself out as a loader, coach, pest controller , stalker/ deer manager etc, you will need additional cover for this commercial activity; see here. A professional shooters policy brokered by Aim Risk Services and Underwritten by Sportscover Europe Limited

BASC member insurance

BASC membership comes with insurance you can rely on.

basc.org.uk

Thanks @Conor O'Gorman.

So your best guess is once a month. Is there an intention to keep a record and make it public the number asking for stalkers information going forwards?

As to the insurance issue. Thank you for reproducing the BASC line however as was shown previously the insurers (Zurich) do not agree with this. Has there been a change if insurers? OR has this issue now been resolved with Zurich?

 

[Hayduke]

I don’t mind folk from (not necessarily English folk) the south of England controlling deer if the attend, preferably daily, and actually do the job.

Different sites need different approaches. I think you underestimate the cost of building and maintaining a deer fence. What about situations where fences aren’t an option? There’s a huge push for riparian planting at the moment. You can’t fence a floodplain.

“Preferably attended daily” What!! No one does that on a site not even paid rangers/contractors! Let alone Scottish or English stalkers. And who would foot the bill.

Farmers have been fencing in floodplains since before rylock was invented.

 

[countrryboy]

Hope the following helps:

1. It states that BASC are regularly asked by landowners for names of deer managers. How many times in the last 12 months has this happened?

It's not something that we’ve kept a record of but at least 12 separate enquiries including 3 large institutional landowners and the rest foresters and private landowners. So at least 1 a month.

2. It states the fantastic insurance that BASC members have. Has the issue of the insurance company not covering anyone making any money from the sale of venison been cleared up?

Here is the relevant text from our insurance advice on BASC website:

The BASC policy only covers recreational activities, however, we recognise that some members will take a small payment in cash or in kind as a result of their recreational activity. In most cases this payment, such as it is, will barely cover expenses; never the less it’s important that members are clear on when the BASC policy will protect them and when or if they need additional cover. Indemnity under the BASC members policy includes the activities of members engaging in recreational shooting activities who make a commercial gain from the sale of meat or other small income derived from such recreational shooting activities, provided this is not their primary source of income.

However, if you are formally engaged by a commercial shoot to attend on specific days to undertake a specific task such as beating, picking up or loading, then you will be employed by the shoot and covered under the shoots Employer Liability cover.

If you hire yourself out as a loader, coach, pest controller , stalker/ deer manager etc, you will need additional cover for this commercial activity; see here. A professional shooters policy brokered by Aim Risk Services and Underwritten by Sportscover Europe Limited

BASC member insurance

BASC membership comes with insurance you can rely on.

basc.org.uk

Reading the last paragraph.

If u hire ur self out .....
Assuming I've understood it correctly
So I'm guessing if ur picking up on a SE basis u won't be covered?

If so a lot of folk who pick up. WILL NOT be covered.

Often pickers will work on a SE basis ( for same poor pay) so they can claim dog food, vet bills etc back

While I am no longer a basc member, I was for 30 odd year and have potentially never been properly covered.
I'm sure many members may be in a similar boat.

Really that needs looking into and confirming 1 way or another so people know if there actually covered or not.

 

[countrryboy]

The rub will occur if the FC and NE (who will be the link between woodland grant scheme recipients and deer control operatives) are seen to list exclusively BASC insured stalkers.)
It’s a good initiative because new plantings in isolated pockets will need new cost effective protection otherwise the grant monies are being wasted. The desk based civil servants allocating the funds need to tick insurance and stalker certification/competence as due diligence and not BASC membership and stalker certification.

I do agree with u about establishment and grant money.
And very strongly believe stalking should be far more local based, but money just spoils all that, always an outsider willing to flash some cash.

I doubt many have a problem with the scheme as such F&C been about in Scotland for donkeys years just how it's used is different, and it does make sense.

It's the fact Basc will be sole arbiters of it, make the rules etc.
And hand out and control the stalking, talk about potential jobs( stalking) for the boys ( mates)
That is not healthy.

Very clever play by basc thou to guarantee members/ finance.

Look wot they've done with wildfowling clubs for decades, many clubs have it written into their constition u have to be a basc member.

Sadly I'd say in England most of the grant money is wasted anywy
From wot I can gather in England grey squirrels are a far bigger problem than deer especially in hardwoods.
But because they don't effect establishment are completely over looked.
Most of the areas I tend to work are still just clinging on to their reds, but when u go to an area with greys and see the absolute carnage they cause its just mental.
Complete waste of time even planting trees they will be lucky to survive and certainly never going to have a harvestable crop of them.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thanks @Conor O'Gorman.

So your best guess is once a month. Is there an intention to keep a record and make it public the number asking for stalkers information going forwards?

As to the insurance issue. Thank you for reproducing the BASC line however as was shown previously the insurers (Zurich) do not agree with this. Has there been a change if insurers? OR has this issue now been resolved with Zurich?

I am sure there will be updates on the initiative as it develops - whether that includes numbers I don't know. Have you joined the register?

As for your query on insurance, do you mean this thread in relation to Woodland Trust and Marsh? The queries were resolved in that thread, which indeed you participated in.

When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

I have always erred on the side of caution. Having taken clients from overseas and from the UK for a good number of years, I have always taken out public liability insurance. This covers my guides, myself, clients and carrying firearms and clients in my vehicles. Clivertons is the company I...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Reading the last paragraph.

If u hire ur self out .....
Assuming I've understood it correctly
So I'm guessing if ur picking up on a SE basis u won't be covered?

If so a lot of folk who pick up. WILL NOT be covered.

Often pickers will work on a SE basis ( for same poor pay) so they can claim dog food, vet bills etc back

While I am no longer a basc member, I was for 30 odd year and have potentially never been properly covered.
I'm sure many members may be in a similar boat.

Really that needs looking into and confirming 1 way or another so people know if there actually covered or not.

I don't wish to get drawn into a debate on insurance if that's ok with you - I can give information but not advice. Given your concerns I would recommend you look at the policy wording of whomever you are insured with and contact them for advice.

As for BASC insurance if anyone needs more advice on their particular circumstances beyond what is explained on the BASC website they can phone Marsh for advice - details here: BASC member insurance

 

[devon deer stalker]

As for your query on insurance, do you mean this thread in relation to Woodland Trust and Marsh? The queries were resolved in that thread, which indeed you participated in.

When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

I have always erred on the side of caution. Having taken clients from overseas and from the UK for a good number of years, I have always taken out public liability insurance. This covers my guides, myself, clients and carrying firearms and clients in my vehicles. Clivertons is the company I...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

That was my thread, it certainly made organisations/stalkers/insurance companies have a little rethink, and too be honest I don't think anyone will know for sure until there is a claim, then we will find out, but for me on a personal level, I can't risk losing my home/livelihood so I have commercial insurance as I sell venison to game dealers and take out clients.

 

[Shabz]

“Preferably attended daily” What!! No one does that on a site not even paid rangers/contractors! Let alone Scottish or English stalkers. And who would foot the bill.

Farmers have been fencing in floodplains since before rylock was invented.

What bill would there be? We’re talking about recreational stalkers who live next door to the site. They could absolutely attend daily if they needed to. I know I could. With night vision scope and a thermal imager, I’ll protect trees next to my house far better than any fence could and I’ll do it for absolutely nothing.

The below pictures are a fence on a woodland creation site I inspected recently. Only about eighty hectares in a riparian area/floodplain. The fence cost £120k and was largely demolished by flood within three weeks of being erected. The forester reckoned that to rectify cost £20k. It’ll need fixed every time it floods like that but hopefully it was a once in 100years flood.

 

[VSS]

What bill would there be? We’re talking about recreational stalkers who live next door to the site. They could absolutely attend daily if they needed to. I know I could. With night vision scope and a thermal imager, I’ll protect trees next to my house far better than any fence could and I’ll do it for absolutely nothing.

The below pictures are a fence on a woodland creation site I inspected recently. Only about eighty hectares in a riparian area/floodplain. The fence cost £120k and was largely demolished by flood within three weeks of being erected. The forester reckoned that to rectify cost £20k. It’ll need fixed every time it floods like that but hopefully it was a once in 100years flood.

Daily outings, expensive equipment, protecting someone else's investment? Why would you do it for absolutely nothing? That's just daft!

 

[T.eddie]

I would also think daily outings would not be a great tactic given the deer would soon learn "you" and then make it harder to get onto them

 

[Shabz]

Daily outings, expensive equipment, protecting someone else's investment? Why would you do it for absolutely nothing? That's just daft!

So don’t do it then. It’s free stalking ffs. It’s way cheaper than paying one of these folk on here £1000 a year to be in a syndicate of thirty on ground that’s 150 miles away that the ‘lease holder’ also takes clients out on.

I’m not saying that you’d go daily either, just that the ability to do it would be a great advantage.

 

[Shabz]

I would also think daily outings would not be a great tactic given the deer would soon learn "you" and then make it harder to get onto them

Much easier to kill a deer if you can go when the conditions are right. I wouldn’t suggest going daily but the ability to go at the drop of a hat makes you far more effective than someone who’s even an hour away.

 

[T.eddie]

Much easier to kill a deer if you can go when the conditions are right. I wouldn’t suggest going daily but the ability to go at the drop of a hat makes you far more effective than someone who’s even an hour away.

yeah very true

 

[big ears]

I am sure there will be updates on the initiative as it develops - whether that includes numbers I don't know. Have you joined the register?

As for your query on insurance, do you mean this thread in relation to Woodland Trust and Marsh? The queries were resolved in that thread, which indeed you participated in.

When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

I have always erred on the side of caution. Having taken clients from overseas and from the UK for a good number of years, I have always taken out public liability insurance. This covers my guides, myself, clients and carrying firearms and clients in my vehicles. Clivertons is the company I...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

@Conor O'Gorman I’m not sure the issues were resolved. It was left that there is still uncertainty whether Zurich will cover anyone who earns money from their stalking.

You are right I took part in the thread which is why I am asking if the issues raised in this thread have been resolved by BASC.

As far as I am aware the shooting insurance sold by BASC does not cover anyone for any claim against them in relationship to sold game.

Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

BE

 

[75]

1. It states that BASC are regularly asked by landowners for names of deer managers. How many times in the last 12 months has this happened?

It's not something that we’ve kept a record of but at least 12 separate enquiries including 3 large institutional landowners and the rest foresters and private landowners. So at least 1 a month.

That's laughable. I'm sorry, I'm not the biggest fan of BASC but I don't go out of my way to slag them off generally but...

You've created a Register of Competent Stalkers to address one enquiry a month for a membership of 150,000 folk??? I've had more enquiries myself in a year than that and I'm just a Joe-average, recreational stalker!!!

 

[Shabz]

That's laughable. I'm sorry, I'm not the biggest fan of BASC but I don't go out of my way to slag them off generally but...

You've created a Register of Competent Stalkers to address one enquiry a month for a membership of 150,000 folk??? I've had more enquiries myself in a year than that and I'm just a Joe-average, recreational stalker!!!

Scotland has just approved more than 14000ha of woodland creation to be delivered in 2025. We’ve just renewed the UK Forestry Standard so that it expects more effort put into deer management.
The potential for a scheme like this is huge. It has to be in place (and known about) for the demand to come.