When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

[sikamalc]

I have always erred on the side of caution. Having taken clients from overseas and from the UK for a good number of years, I have always taken out public liability insurance.
This covers my guides, myself, clients and carrying firearms and clients in my vehicles.

Clivertons is the company I use. Never been a problem. But insuring vehicles to carry clients and firearms is not easy. Many companies won't entertain it. But its essential in my opinion, along with a good accountant.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thanks Conor,

So in the event of a claim the first port of call would be the insurance company requesting the claimant provides proof of all his revenue gained from his 'recreational' activities and also his HMRC tax return before a claim could be considered?
I believe there was mention of a £5k limit for revenue gained, is that gross or net?
Even a 'recreational' stalker can soon exceed £5k.

At least my thread has been a bit thought provoking!

Cheers

Richard

To discuss claims as regards your personal circumstances please call Marsh Insurance on 0370 9032037.

For more information see:

BASC member insurance

BASC membership comes with insurance you can rely on.

basc.org.uk

There is no mention of a £5K income limit on the BASC insurance policy. As previously posted the relevant clauses are here:

 

[devon deer stalker]

To discuss claims as regards your personal circumstances please call Marsh Insurance on 0370 9032037.

For more information see:

BASC member insurance

BASC membership comes with insurance you can rely on.

basc.org.uk

There is no mention of a £5K income limit on the BASC insurance policy. As previously posted the relevant clauses are here:

View attachment 328623

I'm insured through Clivertons, so I don't need to contact Marsh insurers, I am a business, not recreational.

The £5k, I can see that as mentioned in previous posts, £5k is the NGO limit, not BASC, but I find this even more interesting, so in theory a 'recreational' stalker, as a member of BASC, could be in paid employment and earn for example, £30k/annum, and earn up to that amount from venison sales, and still be regarded as 'recreational' as it's not their primary source of income?
Would BASC insurers see this person as recreational, if not where is the point where it changes?
I think we have just come full circle.
I think perhaps you should contact Marsh insurers for clarification.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I'm insured through Clivertons, so I don't need to contact Marsh insurers, I am a business, not recreational.

The £5k, I can see that as mentioned in previous posts, £5k is the NGO limit, not BASC, but I find this even more interesting, so in theory a 'recreational' stalker, as a member of BASC, could be in paid employment and earn for example, £30k/annum, and earn up to that amount from venison sales, and still be regarded as 'recreational' as it's not their primary source of income?
Would BASC insurers see this person as recreational, if not where is the point where it changes?
I think we have just come full circle.
I think perhaps you should contact Marsh insurers for clarification.

I hope you will understand that I do not wish to engage in discussion on speculative scenarios about insurance policies - I can only provide information - I have provided information above which I think is straightforward and clear. However, anyone needing specific advice for their personal circumstances can of course contact Marsh direct - that is what that service is there for.

 

[Bowland blades]

If you operate as a business you need insurance . Covers from your org likely wont help you unless you join as trade with a trade insurance . It should protect everything the business owns and then what you own in many circumstances
Doing a hunt swap or similar and you regular household insurance will generally do for the liabilities but phone your insurer to check! Just a note if your abroad you might not have cover for certain things so check and get what you might need sorted
Many orgs offer a policy of last resort , be careful about what you hold and ask questions

 

[Envillegc1]

I am no Barrister, but ultimately if a claim is disputed it will end up in Court.
From my experience of dealings in the property world, the judiciary will look at the precise wording of the policy.

I suspect that recreational, means just that, an activity pursued for pleasure not monetary gain.
The test will be therefore has money been exchanged?

If you pay for a stalk then yes, the person is effectivly running a business.
Whether that is declared or not in the eyes of the court will not matter.

Another point will be the fact that in any incident, Isuspect that the HSE will be involved.

Again from involvement with this organisation they will leave no stone unturned. Trust me been there got that badge!

If you look at golf, recreational golfers are those who are members of a club and have amatear status. Insurance covers them for stray shots etc. PGA players are covered by a different scheme of cover and if you watched it when a ball careers into a crowd you can bet a claim for damages follows on, but is settled out of court.

So if you are part of a syndicate, this is in effect a club.
If that syndicate then sells the meat to a game dealer that is a business. If they consume it themselves its not, even if you pay someone to butcher it for you.

I would also say that if you are questioning it yourself, then you dont have the correct policy and need to take specific advice.

Just my thoughts.

 

[devon deer stalker]

I hope you will understand that I do not wish to engage in discussion on speculative scenarios about insurance policies - I can only provide information - I have provided information above which I think is straightforward and clear. However, anyone needing specific advice for their personal circumstances can of course contact Marsh direct - that is what that service is there for.

Sorry I don't agree, it isn't straightforward.
I'm not a member of BASC, but if I were I would be contacting the head office, or any other provider SACS, NGO etc
for them to ask for clarification on my behalf, after all it's part of the membership fee, as I'm not a member I will leave it to others to follow this up, or not.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Sorry I don't agree, it isn't straightforward.
I'm not a member of BASC, but if I were I would be contacting the head office, or any other provider SACS, NGO etc
for them to ask for clarification on my behalf, after all it's part of the membership fee, as I'm not a member I will leave it to others to follow this up, or not.

We will have to agree to disagree then as you seem to be looking for issues where there are none. Also, I can't speak for SACS, NGO etc but if a BASC member contacts us requesting personal advice on insurance we advise them to contact Marsh Insurance because that is their remit.

BASC member insurance

BASC membership comes with insurance you can rely on.

basc.org.uk

 

[1894]

BASC insurance policy includes cover for recreational stalking which results in income from the sale of carcass/game meat as long as that income is not a main source of income and is secondary to one's recreational activities. We have contacted the Woodland Trust to clarify this with them and they are now contacting all their contract stalkers to correct their email of yesterday.

The relevant extract from the BASC insurance policy is below.

View attachment 328593

Sadly too late. I’ve left after a conversation this morning l with Marsh who stated sale of just one carcass is commercial.

 

[25 Sharps]

Sadly too late. I’ve left after a conversation this morning l with Marsh who stated sale of just one carcass is commercial.

@Conor O'Gorman that seems to directly contradict what you are saying and quoting; it would mean a lot of people need to move away from BASC insurance as they would have thought they are covered and are not.

On that basis it would be useful if you could please seek clarification and let us know on here please.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Sadly too late. I’ve left after a conversation this morning l with Marsh who stated sale of just one carcass is commercial.

We will look into this - it would help to have your BASC membership number - please PM me or email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk

 

[75]

Sadly too late. I’ve left after a conversation this morning l with Marsh who stated sale of just one carcass is commercial.

You couldn't make this up, could you?!?? @devon deer stalker has clearly raised a very good point here. The BASC policy wording effectively says you're covered as long as your income from venison sales is a single penny less than your main annual salary (assuming you have a full time job elsewhere). Yet the underwriters have said sale of a single carcass takes you from "recreational" to "professional" so you're not covered. Completely at odds with the policy wording

you seem to be looking for issues where there are none.

It appears not...!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

This thread was originally about "When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?" and the relevant wording of BASC's insurance policy has been posted several times in this thread in response to queries. Given recent comments continuing to question the policy and for those new to this thread I think it warrants repeating as follows:




Some recent posts have been related to emails sent by the Woodland Trust to contractors operating on their land regarding income and insurance cover and that has muddied the waters somewhat.

SD member @1894 has kindly been in touch with me by email with further details to his post above and a colleague has looked into this and followed up with @1894 and Marsh Insurance, and the advice he had was not correct, with the catalyst for all this being emails from the Woodland Trust.

We are still seeking clarity with the Woodland Trust on the emails they have been sending to their contractors. I will update further on that next week.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Muddied waters, not a word you want associated with insurance is it?, but clarity is, so it should be an interesting reply, so should the definition of the wording of the original thread.
Clearly this caused a contractor (how can that be described as recreational is beyond me) to contact the Woodland Trust, they had concerns and sent out an email (that would be an interesting read) the fact they were worried should be a concern to all.

 

[cjm1066]

The BASC policy wording is surprising and will cover a lot of members activities.

The tax man is another consideration, if you are declaring a profit and paying tax it's commercial even if done for sport.

 

[devon deer stalker]

I notice that only Marsh insurance have been mentioned by @Conor O'Gorman as providing their insurance, and it is they that muddied the waters with @1894 so it begs the question, why aren't AIM mentioned as they are associated with BASC, Who are AIM Risk Services? - BASC my friend went with them some time ago as he sells venison.

 

[sikamalc]

OP request.