When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

[big ears]

And yet, when we sell to a game dealer, or process the venison, the law says 'you must register with your local authority as a food business' emphasis on the word business.

I wish I could find the communication I had with the NGO once, it was just an opinion by an employee, not qualified to do so, but in essence I'm sure it said we were not covered to sell venison, but to contact their insurer Lycetts for clarification.
I never did, I went with another insurer.

I’ll ring the brokers when I can

 

[devon deer stalker]

I’ll ring the brokers when I can

or maybe BASC on the forum could put it in black and white so it be quoted should an incident ever occur?
it makes no difference to me, I have commercial insurance, just thinking of my friends on here.

 

[PEM406]

Hi Richard,

This is from BASC website in relation to member insurance and cover

“Indemnity under the BASC members policy includes the activities of members engaging in recreational shooting activities who make a commercial gain from the sale of meat or other small income derived from such recreational shooting activities, provided this is not their primary source of income.

However, if you are formally engaged by a commercial shoot to attend on specific days to undertake a specific task such as beating, picking up or loading, then you will be employed by the shoot and covered under the shoots Employer Liability cover.”

Seems that if it’s your pastime you are covered to put into game dealer or sell on venison you have shot as long as it’s not a buisiness.

BE

Great thread and thanks for this; I also found that on their site.

Aside from the sale of venison, I wonder how far "small income" stretches... need to read the T&Cs again or ask them.

I recently took someone out as a favour to a friend because they were ill. I wasn't being paid but the person I took was undoubtably paying for being guided. All went well but I was wondering after if I should have insurance in case it happens again. Even if they counted the fee the client was charged, I'd assume it still falls into "small income" and "not their primary source of income" but I'd hate to have to find out I was wrong.

 

[Bandit Country]

Certainly something to think about. I suspect the defintive answer will only arrive as and when there is case law, after a trial?

FWIW, many years ago I used to work for a well known assurance company. Being a commercial enterprise and very much in the business of making money, if they could avoid paying a claim, then they would.

 

[AGR]

One

Great thread and thanks for this; I also found that on their site.

Aside from the sale of venison, I wonder how far "small income" stretches... need to read the T&Cs again or ask them.

I recently took someone out as a favour to a friend because they were ill. I wasn't being paid but the person I took was undoubtably paying for being guided. All went well but I was wondering after if I should have insurance in case it happens again. Even if they counted the fee the client was charged, I'd assume it still falls into "small income" and "not their primary source of income" but I'd hate to have to find out I was wrong.

One would hope that any individual involved in shooting sports would have insurance through membership of an organisation, if so, there would be no concerns for you.

 

[Pete6.5]

or maybe BASC on the forum could put it in black and white so it be quoted should an incident ever occur?
it makes no difference to me, I have commercial insurance, just thinking of my friends on here.

I agree totally with you it was a massive grey area so I just took out commercial insurance. Another big point that no one thinks about but if you take a friend out stalking and they "help" you even if you don't pay them. You need employers liability insurance.

 

[AGR]

I agree totally with you it was a massive grey area so I just took out commercial insurance. Another big point that no one thinks about but if you take a friend out stalking and they "help" you even if you don't pay them. You need employers liability insurance.

I hardly think so. One would need employers liability insurance anytime someone 'gave you a hand' if so.

 

[Pete6.5]

I hardly think so. One would need employers liability insurance anytime someone 'gave you a hand' if so.

I'm afraid so if you have regular volunteer then yes you do.

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention....

I have Just been informed by a two woodland management groups that my BASC insurance does not cover me as is recreational and I require commercial insurance because I sell the carcasses.

Can anyone advise on a good/cheap commercial insurance provider?

Thanks

 

[devon deer stalker]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention....

I have Just been informed by a two woodland management groups that my BASC insurance does not cover me as is recreational and I require commercial insurance because I sell the carcasses.

Can anyone advise on a good/cheap commercial insurance provider?

Thanks

That doesn't surprise me.
I'm not Clivertons would meet your needs.
But as mentioned before, Aim might be able to assist although I have never used them myself

 

[75]

I have Just been informed by a two woodland management groups that my BASC insurance does not cover me as is recreational and I require commercial insurance because I sell the carcasses.

I'm not sure that's true, although I'm not sure of your full arrangements with the woodland management groups or how many carcasses you sell. I would seek clarity from BASC before buying another policy as a quick scan of their insurance page states:

The BASC policy only covers recreational activities. However, we recognise that some members will take a small payment in cash or in kind as a result of their recreational activity. In most cases this payment will barely cover expenses; nevertheless it is important that members are clear on when the BASC policy will protect them and if they need additional cover.

BASC insurance policies cover members who make a small commercial gain from the sale of meat or other small income derived from such recreational shooting activities, providing this is not their primary source of income.

I'm with the NGO and their policy states £5k limit so the BASC one might have similar wording in the policy document.

 

[75]

As a side note, I'm seeking clarity on the NGO policy around the wording of when "recreational" becomes "professional".

I suspect I'm like a few others on here - I stalk recreationally (never paid, never with clients), I have a full time job in the engineering industry and a PAYE salary. I earn less than £5k from venison. So far ticks all the boxes to be covered by the recreational policies.

However, I have set up a Sole Trader business and am VAT registered and this is the most tax efficient way for me to operate.

I'll report back if and when they clarify...

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

@Conor O'Gorman

What's BASC stance on this? I will PM you the email I received.

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

I'm not sure that's true, although I'm not sure of your full arrangements with the woodland management groups or how many carcasses you sell. I would seek clarity from BASC before buying another policy as a quick scan of their insurance page states:


I'm with the NGO and their policy states £5k limit so the BASC one might have similar wording in the policy document.

I've emailed BASC as the woodland management org specifically states that the BASC insurance is no longer valid. On this particular contract the deer carcass value per year to myself is certainly under the 5k threshold that other insurers such as NGO & SACS cover. However, BASC do not state a figure so have asked Conor for clarification.

I am also a member of SACS so have supplied that cover which states up to 5K earnings and await a reply. At the moment I am unsure if I actually require commercial cover as my contract states "Deer Culling Contract" and does not mention Recreational anywhere.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Conor O'Gorman

What's BASC stance on this? I will PM you the email I received.

Thanks, I will look into this and get back to you.

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

Thanks, I will look into this and get back to you.

Thanks for quick response Conor and PM you sent. Lets hope for a positive outcome.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC insurance policy includes cover for recreational stalking which results in income from the sale of carcass/game meat as long as that income is not a main source of income and is secondary to one's recreational activities. We have contacted the Woodland Trust to clarify this with them and they are now contacting all their contract stalkers to correct their email of yesterday.

The relevant extract from the BASC insurance policy is below.

 

[bowji john]

I am lead to believe, that as soon as you take any payment or barter, for the stalking side , you are NOT covered as recreational, and need to be with clivertons or the like , as for selling a food product , I'm not sure , but would think your are NOT covered by recreational cover , aswell as all the other liabilities that go with food as opposed to a carcass at the dealers , it's a completely different league,, should be a good topic for debate and clarify

In contract law, I believe it (payment) is called ‘consideration’

It can be in any form - not just money

As a synic, in answer to the original question

Unless you have commercial insurance, you cross the line the moment you attempt to make a claim

 

[devon deer stalker]

BASC insurance policy includes cover for recreational stalking which results in income from the sale of carcass/game meat as long as that income is not a main source of income and is secondary to one's recreational activities.

The relevant extract from the BASC insurance policy is below.

View attachment 328593

Thanks Conor,

So in the event of a claim the first port of call would be the insurance company requesting the claimant provides proof of all his revenue gained from his 'recreational' activities and also his HMRC tax return before a claim could be considered?
I believe there was mention of a £5k limit for revenue gained, is that gross or net?
Even a 'recreational' stalker can soon exceed £5k.

At least my thread has been a bit thought provoking!

Cheers

Richard

 

[arron]

In contract law, I believe it (payment) is called ‘consideration’

It can be in any form - not just money

As a synic, in answer to the original question

Unless you have commercial insurance, you cross the line the moment you attempt to make a claim

Yes , agreed ,, that would be my take on it