When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

[Irish Bob]

I believe that selling venison would fall under product liability insurance.

 

[devon deer stalker]

One would assume and hope that your friend has Grade 5 food licence to butcher, pack and sell venison direct to the public?
I am insured with Clivertons for public liability insurance and includes taking stalking clients and my guides or any volunteers. Clivertons base their policies and cost on turnover. It wouldn't take long to move 5k in venison sales.
My vehicle 4x4 is insured with a further company for carrying passengers and carrying firearms.

Selling venison I assume would be covered under public liability, but I stand to be corrected as I am not in insurance.

I have no idea what rating he has
But here is mine

 

[paulbshooting]

Interesting to read all responses and it does seem we may or not be covered depending on exactly you do. The grade 5 is a hygiene rating, you can trade with a 1 or 2 but subject to LOTS of EH audits. I am grade 5 and maintained it at that. I don't take clients out but do need public liability to sell venison at shows and farmers markets. My fieldsports insurance covers just me when stalking but not processing. I am meat hygiene, L1 and L2 qualified but its product liability I am keen on in case of any issue with supplied venison. I will try cliverton.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Interesting to read all responses and it does seem we may or not be covered depending on exactly you do. The grade 5 is a hygiene rating, you can trade with a 1 or 2 but subject to LOTS of EH audits. I am grade 5 and maintained it at that. I don't take clients out but do need public liability to sell venison at shows and farmers markets. My fieldsports insurance covers just me when stalking but not processing. I am meat hygiene, L1 and L2 qualified but its product liability I am keen on in case of any issue with supplied venison. I will try cliverton.

You are correct regarding the ratings.
You might be better searching out a stand alone policy, I'm with Clivertons because I take out clients, the sale of venison is an add on to my policy.

 

[75]

I think the Food Hygiene ratings are a red herring personally.

I have a 5* rating but you are only assessed against the relevant regulations. In most of our cases, this will be the FSA Wild Game regs.

These regs are no where near as prescriptive or onerous as those relating to other food businesses. You could easily get a 5* rating for venison processing but a much lower rating for, say, a farm shop or takeaway business. All 5* ratings are not equal!

Back onto the original question, I’m with NGO and their policy states:

The NGO's £45 Membership Subscription includes public liability insurance for up to £10 millionwhilst taking part in any listed gamekeeping or shooting activity for recreational purposes, as well as covering you whilst earning no more than £5,000per annum through shooting, this figure includes any monies obtained from carcass sales.

I’ve not tested this with a claim and hope never to, but I take some comfort in “…recreational purposes as well as…” which would suggest that they consider sale of carcasses to be different / in addition to recreational stalking and do cover it.

 

[paulbshooting]

You are correct regarding the ratings.
You might be better searching out a stand alone policy, I'm with Clivertons because I take out clients, the sale of venison is an add on to my policy.

Thanks. Yep that's the next step. I think something bespoke is required.

 

[devon deer stalker]

I’ve not tested this with a claim and hope never to, but I take some comfort in “…recreational purposes as well as…” which would suggest that they consider sale of carcasses to be different / in addition to recreational stalking and do cover it.

There is that word 'recreational' again.

 

[dunwater]

Is that 5k figure based on turnover or profit?

 

[homer]

Interesting to read all responses and it does seem we may or not be covered depending on exactly you do. The grade 5 is a hygiene rating, you can trade with a 1 or 2 but subject to LOTS of EH audits. I am grade 5 and maintained it at that. I don't take clients out but do need public liability to sell venison at shows and farmers markets. My fieldsports insurance covers just me when stalking but not processing. I am meat hygiene, L1 and L2 qualified but its product liability I am keen on in case of any issue with supplied venison. I will try cliverton.

Also try aim risk services

 

[triggertrix]

I think the issue raised here is if someone made a claim against you and while you'd believe you were covered, the insurance company would have a different view and you'd be out on your own.

You could broadbrush that statement across all types of insurance products and claim circumstances

 

[25 Sharps]

I think the Food Hygiene ratings are a red herring personally.

I have a 5* rating but you are only assessed against the relevant regulations. In most of our cases, this will be the FSA Wild Game regs.

These regs are no where near as prescriptive or onerous as those relating to other food businesses. You could easily get a 5* rating for venison processing but a much lower rating for, say, a farm shop or takeaway business. All 5* ratings are not equal!

Back onto the original question, I’m with NGO and their policy states:


I’ve not tested this with a claim and hope never to, but I take some comfort in “…recreational purposes as well as…” which would suggest that they consider sale of carcasses to be different / in addition to recreational stalking and do cover it.

Carcass sales could be referring to whole carcasses rather than processed meat. I wonder how they define it?

 

[T.eddie]

Would this not be down to the insurance provider to decide when the policy is taken as to if they cover you. I.e. BASC policy says something to the effect if covered for commercial gains up to X amount and providing its not your main source of income. So to me that would say if you fall within their threshold your insured

 

[devon deer stalker]

As I suspected, none of us know, the worrying part is I doubt we will until an incident happens then it's wiggle time with the insurance providers.
The BDS dropped the insurance side of things, they stated cost, or I wonder if like me they had concerns?
For me, I'm airing on the side of caution, for others, that's for you to decide.

 

[big ears]

So I’m now confused. I get the need for extra insurance if you are taking out clients, that makes sense but
Will a standard policy with BASC as a recreational stalker allow me to put up to £5k into a game dealer without the need for extra insurance?

 

[75]

There will always be nuances but I’m comfortable that in general I’m covered as a recreational stalker OR as some one who sells venison (up to £5k). That’s what the policy says.

I’m most likely not covered for taking paying clients out but I don’t do that so I’m fine with it.

 

[devon deer stalker]

So I’m now confused. I get the need for extra insurance if you are taking out clients, that makes sense but
Will a standard policy with BASC as a recreational stalker allow me to put up to £5k into a game dealer without the need for extra insurance?

Perhaps, as you are a member of BASC, you could invite them to this thread and make things absolutely clear, and clarify without any shadow of doubt, the definition between the 2, recreational or business, I can't as I'm not a member, a statement from their insurance company would be perfect, then those who rely on it can rest easy at night.
Or not, maybe HMRC will take an interest in the money coming in?
Cheers
Richard

 

[big ears]

Perhaps, as you are a member of BASC, you could invite them to this thread and make things absolutely clear, and clarify without any shadow of doubt, the definition between the 2, recreational or business, I can't as I'm not a member, a statement from their insurance company would be perfect, then those who rely on it can rest easy at night.
Or not, maybe HMRC will take an interest in the money coming in?
Cheers
Richard

Ok will do. I’ll contact Head office and see what reply will then post on here. That is unless the BASC rep beats me too it

 

[big ears]

Perhaps, as you are a member of BASC, you could invite them to this thread and make things absolutely clear, and clarify without any shadow of doubt, the definition between the 2, recreational or business, I can't as I'm not a member, a statement from their insurance company would be perfect, then those who rely on it can rest easy at night.
Or not, maybe HMRC will take an interest in the money coming in?
Cheers
Richard

Hi Richard,

This is from BASC website in relation to member insurance and cover

“Indemnity under the BASC members policy includes the activities of members engaging in recreational shooting activities who make a commercial gain from the sale of meat or other small income derived from such recreational shooting activities, provided this is not their primary source of income.

However, if you are formally engaged by a commercial shoot to attend on specific days to undertake a specific task such as beating, picking up or loading, then you will be employed by the shoot and covered under the shoots Employer Liability cover.”

Seems that if it’s your pastime you are covered to put into game dealer or sell on venison you have shot as long as it’s not a buisiness.

BE

 

[Gandy]

Sorry I’m late to the party but I would imagine it would be in the t’s and c’s of any insurance policy.

It will be for the underwriter to advise I’d want it spelt out as we all know what insurance are like at paying out.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Hi Richard,

This is from BASC website in relation to member insurance and cover

“Indemnity under the BASC members policy includes the activities of members engaging in recreational shooting activities who make a commercial gain from the sale of meat or other small income derived from such recreational shooting activities, provided this is not their primary source of income.

However, if you are formally engaged by a commercial shoot to attend on specific days to undertake a specific task such as beating, picking up or loading, then you will be employed by the shoot and covered under the shoots Employer Liability cover.”

Seems that if it’s your pastime you are covered to put into game dealer or sell on venison you have shot as long as it’s not a buisiness.

BE

And yet, when we sell to a game dealer, or process the venison, the law says 'you must register with your local authority as a food business' emphasis on the word business.

I wish I could find the communication I had with the NGO once, it was just an opinion by an employee, not qualified to do so, but in essence I'm sure it said we were not covered to sell venison, but to contact their insurer Lycetts for clarification.
I never did, I went with another insurer.