When does recreational stalking cross over to become a business in relation to insurance?

[devon deer stalker]

As I am a guide/deer stalker/fly fishing guide insurance plays an important part in my line of work.
I am with Clivertons, covers me for taking out clients for stalking/fly fishing, and an add on for sales of venison.
This is a commercial bespoke policy, all guides should have this and not rely on their clients having their own insurance.

I have been with SACS, NGO, BDS, BASC, Country Covers.

Some cover you up to £5k for 'recreational' stalking and distribution of venison.
That is the very grey area, and probably won't be tested until an accident happens, or there is a food poisoning incident, then be prepared to lose your home and/or your liberty.

The way I see it (I'm sure plenty will disagree and that's fine) the recreational stalker, goes out, shoots a deer, consumes himself or gives it away to family friends, he is recreational.

The guy who thinks he is a recreational stalker, goes out, shoots a deer, consumes himself, gives it away, barters, sells to game dealer, or direct to the public, just to cover 'expenses' or up to £5k as per insurance he thinks covers him.
No longer a recreational stalker, they have taken financial reward, even if that doesn't cover their costs, they have taken a reward, and should, I believe, declare to HMRC, but happy to be proved wrong on that HMRC point by any accountants on here.

A good friend of mine asked one of the above (Not Cliverton) for their opinion, back came the answer 'you are covered for recreational deer stalking and sale of venison up to £5k'
My friend does not take out clients, but sells the venison direct at farmers markets and his website.
I'm not sure if he exceeds the £5k, none of my business, but he is a good friend, I would hate for him, or anyone else to believe they are covered by these statements 'recreational stalking' and when it comes to a claim the insurance company wiggles out of it.

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, or goes down the wrong way these discussions can go on the SD, nasty personal comments taking it off track, it's meant in a positive way, just to make people think, am I really covered?

What are peoples views?
Maybe the above providers can give a definitive legal description of the difference, and stand by it should a claim occur?

Cheers

Richard

 

[VSS]

An excellent subject to raise

 

[olliehopes]

Recreational to me means exactly what the dictionary says, "relating to or denoting activity done for enjoyment when one is not working." If monies are changing hands it would then denote that you're doing it ( some times a meagre) wage. Even if it is "just to cover costs".

 

[BLUEROLL]

Interesting points Richard.
So if I understand it correctly your friend was advised by one the organisations ( not Cliverton) that if you sell carcasses to a game dealer as as such gain a financial reward you are not considered a recreational stalker for insurance purposes and not covered for any mishap ?

 

[devon deer stalker]

Interesting points Richard.
So if I understand it correctly your friend was advised by one the organisations ( not Cliverton) that if you sell carcasses to a game dealer as as such gain a financial reward you are not considered a recreational stalker for insurance purposes and not covered for any mishap ?

Sorry I need to clarify, he asked the question and was advised that if he sold on any venison he would be covered up to £5k if it was a 'recreational activity', doesn't matter whether that be a game dealer or Joe Bloggs at a farmers market etc

 

[takbok]

Rightly or wrongly, insurance just ticks boxes for me. I don't have high expectations if I were to actually make a claim.

Everyone has very different attitudes to risk.

Just my 2p.

 

[BLUEROLL]

Sorry I need to clarify, he asked the question and was advised that if he sold on any venison he would be covered up to £5k if it was a 'recreational activity', doesn't matter whether that be a game dealer or Joe Bloggs at a farmers market etc

Okay thanks.

 

[arron]

I am lead to believe, that as soon as you take any payment or barter, for the stalking side , you are NOT covered as recreational, and need to be with clivertons or the like , as for selling a food product , I'm not sure , but would think your are NOT covered by recreational cover , aswell as all the other liabilities that go with food as opposed to a carcass at the dealers , it's a completely different league,, should be a good topic for debate and clarify

 

[BLUEROLL]

I have just had a conversation with Cliverton insurance and told they don`t do personal cover, only business or syndicate.

 

[nun_hunter]

Rightly or wrongly, insurance just ticks boxes for me. I don't have high expectations if I were to actually make a claim.

Everyone has very different attitudes to risk.

Just my 2p.

I think the issue raised here is if someone made a claim against you and while you'd believe you were covered, the insurance company would have a different view and you'd be out on your own.

 

[arron]

Just to put it another way , in no way could you use recreational cover if your subcontracting for the forestry, even if you remained under the 5k threshold, its no different

 

[BLUEROLL]

Just to put it another way , in no way could you use recreational cover if your subcontracting for the forestry, even if you remained under the 5k threshold, its no different

So if you are subcontracting you are a business ?

 

[arron]

So if you are subcontracting you are a business ?

Correct, everything accounted ,declared , taxes paid , as soon as you take any payment for a service , you fall into that category, hence the need for commercial insurance?? Maybe I have got it wrong , but that's how I have rolled/ been advised, I wouldn't want to end up in court with no cover that's for sure

 

[takbok]

I think the issue raised here is if someone made a claim against you and while you'd believe you were covered, the insurance company would have a different view and you'd be out on your own.

Agreed, that's what I'd expect from an insurance company.

 

[devon deer stalker]

I think the issue raised here is if someone made a claim against you and while you'd believe you were covered, the insurance company would have a different view and you'd be out on your own.

Yes that's my thought process, sitting back confident you are covered, but in fact you might not be.

 

[paulbshooting]

It's a minefield and thanks for raising as trying to seek a solution myself. Was covered by Hiscox when I started my small venison business and had separate fieldsports insurance from BDS then not the NGO which covers the stalking and other activities. Hiscox then decided they couldnt cover me and was unable to clear explanation why. In the process of trying to find a way forward now so keen to see what others are doing.

 

[BLUEROLL]

Yes that's my thought process, sitting back confident you are covered, but in fact you might not be.

Add in syndicate/group membership with one of the organisations and the syndicate/group contracts with forestry management companies and private landowners.
Any insurance experts on here ??????????????

 

[VSS]

Yes that's my thought process, sitting back confident you are covered, but in fact you might not be.

I think this is a common situation in many aspects, not just shooting / venison sales. I bet people spend a fortune during their lives for non existent cover.

 

[Jagdmatch]

I use Cliverton in the same circumstances as outlined. I am however a Ltd company which protects me in some regard. Obviously food business registered and with appropriated food handling qualifications and premises. I probably do not turn over £5000 worth but I explained to Cliverton the above and according to them the company public lability is covered.
I have also my own personal public liability.

 

[sikamalc]

One would assume and hope that your friend has Grade 5 food licence to butcher, pack and sell venison direct to the public?
I am insured with Clivertons for public liability insurance and includes taking stalking clients and my guides or any volunteers. Clivertons base their policies and cost on turnover. It wouldn't take long to move 5k in venison sales.
My vehicle 4x4 is insured with a further company for carrying passengers and carrying firearms.

Selling venison I assume would be covered under public liability, but I stand to be corrected as I am not in insurance.