Legality and Efficacy of Bowhunting in the UK

[Heym SR20]

i do think a bow would be a very useful tool, especially in urban areas.

From a safety perspective there is much less energy in an arrow and it doesn’t go nearly as far as a rifle bullet.

Backstops etc still just as necessary.

Whilst an arrow has little energy it kills by cutting and severing major arteries and provided its put in the right place its just as humane as a bullet.

I would expect an equivalent bow test to a DSC1 rifle test plus FAC before being allowed to use on deer - the biggest obstacle is bows in the hands of totally inexperienced individuals trying to live out Bush craft ideals, without actually putting in the hard work of developing the skill set.

 

[Selous]

I am lucky enough to live both sides of the pond and get to participate in what is offered in both countries for deer stalking and hunting. My US base is Michigan, a state that is considered one of the best states for deer hunting and a place where bow hunting has a long history. I own a large piece of woodland which was hunted for many years by Fred Bear who was considered the godfather of US archery hunting.

I tried compound bow hunting many years ago and struggled to be competent when hunting from a tree stand, the biggest problem was that the deer would often come in so close it was difficult to assume your shooting position when you were literally right above them. The laws changed in Michigan and it became possible for all hunters to use a crossbow.

A modern crossbow is an amazing tool, it is easily possible to shoot 1” groups out to 35 yards, 2-3” groups out to 55 yards with a reasonable cross bow with a scope. In Michigan our bow hunting season is from October 1st through to December 31st, rifle or gun season is normally November 15-30th 2 weeks only. So if you want to hunt you pretty much have to bow hunt if you want to spend some time out in the woods.

I’ve grown to enjoy bow hunting more than rifle hunting, I have many locations with tree stands or tree seats, my favorite are 25’ climbing ladders that have a 3’ diameter platform with a 360 degree swiveling seat, this gives you about 25’ of elevation from the ground. October is an amazing time to be in the woods, weather is not too cold and we typically see a lot of deer. I have learnt more about deer from bow hunting than I ever did from rifle hunting.

As far as killing power or efficiency of a crossbow I will tell you that all of my shots involve a large 3 bladed broad head going straight through the deer vital organ area, most deer drop within 20 yards, some deer may make it 60-75 yards, a well placed shot results in a serious blood trail and a dead deer every time.

Bow hunting has become a social occasion to hunt with friends, a challenging pleasurable time to be outdoors and a serious necessity to be able to achieve a reasonable cull of deer from the escalating deer population.

I think the introduction of bow hunting in the UK will be very unlikely for many reasons, here in the US it is just part of the day to day hunting culture.

I’ve been thinking about offering some US bow hunting or whitetail deer hunting in exchange for some UK stalking.
View attachment 348820

Interesting, why is the rifle season so short in comparison with the archery season? I thought Michigan state was hooching with deer. Is there a justifiable concern that the deer population will be shot out despite the strictly enforced tag system?

 

[tusker]

3 years ago a friend of mine hunted Buffalo with a bow in SA. All went well and a plan was hatched for him to return the next year for a repeat hunt. The PH asked if he was bow hunting again and my friend said no but he would like to use his 300 Win. Mag. at which point the PH had a complete meltdown saying "not enough gun, to dangerous". Strange world.
Tusker

 

[Heym SR20]

Interesting, why is the rifle season so short in comparison with the archery season? I thought Michigan state was hooching with deer. Is there a justifiable concern that the deer population will be shot out despite the strictly enforced tag system?

The US Tag system is based on ensuring a long term sustainable population of wild animals that can provide a food and recreation resource.

The Tag system varies from region to region and tags are released on the basis of management requirements.

Bow hunting requires much closer approach to animals - 50 yards or less whereas a rifle is 300 yards.

With the rifle season there is far more impact on game, both in terms of numbers shot and overall noise etc. with a bow impact is much less.

So in many areas there are short rifle seasons but longer bow seasons.

There is also long close seasons so wild animals are left alone just to be wild.

The US Tag system evolved in the 1920’s. By that stage all the Bison, most of the Elk and many of the deer, most of the waterfowl were pretty much shot out. Species such as the passenger pigeons had gone extinct, and many of the North American animals had become extinct within much of the United States.

Sadly in the UK we now are shooting deer pretty much everyday of the year. Herd structures are completely messed up and they are under constant pressure. No wonder deer are now moving to and turning up in places where they are not wanted.

There is a good population of large Red Deer at M6 Toll Services. One place I suspect where they feel safe. Here in Ediburgh large numbers in all the city parks.

 

[JH83]

It's probably a mistake to think that the videos you are watching online are particularly representative - either of rifle or archery hunting. The vast, vast majority of hunts are not filmed.

True I would agree that the optics of a lost deer are worse in the UK- although it's also the case that the chance of recovery of a wounded deer is much greater in the UK (I'll elaborate on this if you're interested).

Probably true - to an extent - although as I said above most of us are doing this for sport rather than "management" or as their livelihood. Especially for those who are buying stalking by the beast (as I was when I first started) if you're out to take 1 cull buck because that's what you can afford, being able to more efficiently shoot more deer isn't really relevant, you'll either shoot your buck or you won't.

I must admit I've pretty much given up on hunting podcasts - and I'd agree that it's irritating to hear any hunter slagging off the method/weapon/style of any other hunter. That said, I'm not sure I've often heard archery hunters claiming ethical superiority over rifle hunters. In fact I don't think I've ever heard that - but as I say I've largely detuned from most hunting media, so there may be a rash of bow-hunting fanatics trying to lord it over everyone else. If so, they should shut up - much as I am an advocate of bow hunting, the idea that has some ethical edge over the rifle is absurd.

Is the bow is "inferior" because the rifle gives greater margin for error/sloppy shot placement (which I would agree that it does), or because it allows shooting from a greater range - or for some other reason(s)?

Is it unethical to deliberately undertake a more challenging hunt? Archery hunting is more difficult, less efficient, and more likely to produce a runner than hunting with a rifle. I can completely see why - viewed through the prism of "management" the rifle beats the bow - ditto for the subsistence hunter or smallholder. The very same factors that make archery hunting hard also make it rewarding.

It really comes down to the experience you are trying to have.

Notwithstanding all of the above - this side of the zombie-apocalypse I don't see it being allowed in the UK.

The video comment is purely demonstrative of the inability to instantly drop a beast. On the edge of dark that’s an issue, the amount of “let’s leave it until the morning, we don’t want to bump it” you see on seemingly perfect shots doesn’t bode well, especially in a country where it’s 19 degrees in January. That’s a spoilt carcass. And the shots that go wrong are likely on the cutting room floor.

You need to avoid the JRE. It’s a weekly occurrence. It’s usually navy seal or UFC guy saying how they wouldn’t resort to using a rifle ever again. The luxury of only having 3 deer to shoot a year I guess!

Bows are inferior because they are less accurate, less mechanics to instantly drop a beast. I think that’s obvious. To select one over a rifle means you are purely sport hunting, with no cull target-certainly not a large one. They don’t really seem in keeping with the general notion that deer numbers need getting on top of.

I used to compete in field archery, compound limited and unlimited, and have some silverware to prove it. Sold my last Hoyt recently.

In any event it’s a pipe dream, I suspect the only legislation heading our way is the kind we don’t like very much !

 

[Sol]

Interesting, why is the rifle season so short in comparison with the archery season? I thought Michigan state was hooching with deer. Is there a justifiable concern that the deer population will be shot out despite the strictly enforced tag system?

There's a **** ton of whitetail however almost every state has a two week long rifle season, then a muzzleloader season later in the year. (usually Christmas/January)

Gotta keep In mind the density of hunters Is crazy If your hunting deer you've probably got another 3-4 In the neighbourhood that also hunt.

And public land wouldn't want to chase the 'wild' deer by literally everyone for 4+ months of the hunting season.

Its just for the ethics of the deer typically bow hunters arent running around disturbing everything and bang-in flopp-in stuff at 300 yards, there quiet and relatively unobtrusive.

 

[UpNorthMI]

Interesting, why is the rifle season so short in comparison with the archery season? I thought Michigan state was hooching with deer. Is there a justifiable concern that the deer population will be shot out despite the strictly enforced tag system?

Michigan deer numbers are stronger than ever, the number of hunters is falling and the number of deer being shot is falling.

The department of natural resources, DNR who make our hunting rules are planning a review as we speak. There have been a number of changes in recent years that have included early and late anterless deer weekends or extra weeks in December. Doe permits used to be limited but are now pretty much unlimited. We are limited to 2 buck tags and the second tag is often restricted for a deer that must have 4 points on one of its antlers.

The short gun season has just been a traditional thing. The falling hunter numbers seem to be driven by less younger people joining the sport. Many older hunters do not believe in shooting does despite the DNR trying to explain about deer management.

Everything you shoot you own, there is no game dealer network supplying stores or restaurants, you can only put so much meat in your own freezer. I personally donate deer to friends, people in need or even charities such as Sportsmen Against Hunger.

I anticipate the rules will be further relaxed and will allow hunters to have more time to shoot more deer. You can certainly understand why we need to bow hunt as well as gun hunt.

 

[dogone]

Isn’t Britain the home of Robin Hood? Didn’t he and his band of merry men kill the kings deer with bows? Have modern men got weaker and can’t draw a bow anymore?

 

[VSS]

Isn’t Britain the home of Robin Hood? Didn’t he and his band of merry men kill the kings deer with bows? Have modern men got weaker and can’t draw a bow anymore?

Once we've all got used to the idea of wearing green tights then we can start thinking about relearning the old skill.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

You need to avoid the JRE. It’s a weekly occurrence. It’s usually navy seal or UFC guy saying how they wouldn’t resort to using a rifle ever again. The luxury of only having 3 deer to shoot a year I guess!

True - the whole structure of hunting here makes a huge difference, and the tiered nature of the seasons-by-weapon acts as a strong push for individual hunters to pursue multiple disciplines. Coming from the UK I don't think I would have even considered archery hunting but for the massive increase in the opportunities to hunt that it affords the sportsman. I'm glad I did though - it made me a better hunter.

Bows are inferior because they are less accurate,

By the same logic, should open sights be forbidden for shooting deer in the UK?

less mechanics to instantly drop a beast. I think that’s obvious.

Sure - the incidence of a "bang-flop" (or maybe "thwack-flop") must be infinitesimally smaller with bow vice rifle, but so what - by far the most recommended rifle shot is the heart-lung - the majority of deer shot this way with a rifle will also run. It's also much easier to know if you made a "clean miss" with a bow. In addition, if you do miss, you'll often get a good opportunity for a second arrow (I have experienced this). I have even heard it claimed (although not witnessed) that a deer struck with a well placed arrow may appear not to realize it has been struck at all. IIRC correctly that claim was made by a Danish hunter on the Pace Bros' podcast. I'd like to believe that's possible - but I don't think it's necessary for the bow to be an "ethical" weapon.

To select one over a rifle means you are purely sport hunting,

quite - surely sport hunting is the only "pure" form of hunting?

with no cull target-certainly not a large one.

absolutely - reaching for a bow in the first instance to meet a cull target would be like trying to do the weekly supermarket shop on a cafe racer. The impracticality of a single seat motorcycle for grocery shopping doesn't invalidate it for, for example going to see a friend. And if the ride is a more enjoyable experience than making the same journey in the car (utterly subjective example, if you don't like bikes I'm sure you insert your own analogue) then your life just got richer.

They don’t really seem in keeping with the general notion that deer numbers need getting on top of.

I agree, although I think you should beware the sentiment that the justification for hunting is that it can reduce deer numbers. There's no shame in hunting because you want to hunt. There's no shame in enjoying a hard hunt. And it is surely a reasonable measure of your ability in any activity to be successful against progressively worse odds? What other standard is there?

I used to compete in field archery, compound limited and unlimited, and have some silverware to prove it.

Good for you! Seriously, you're more than likely a much better archer than I. Have you honestly never felt the desire to take it off the range and do it for real? I assume from your previous comments that you lack the confidence in the bow to deliver a quick clean kill - are you sure you're not just parroting the well-intentioned but faintly silly speed, velocity, energy etc requirements in force in the UK? I'm with anyone who would prevent and punish the use 22LR to shoot deer, and other options like 410 slugs are worryingly weedy in the energy department - but it isn't as if bows and arrows don't have a well documented and proven ability to kill cleanly over literally thousands of years of human history and development. To be sure, I'd be pretty upset with anyone trying to hunt with a dull broadhead - just as I'm sure we'd both be disgusted by somebody shooting a deer with an FMJ.

In any event it’s a pipe dream, I suspect the only legislation heading our way is the kind we don’t like very much !

I think you're right about this - I also think that any serious attempt to allow archery-for-deer in the UK would be couched in terms of it being desirable as means to reducing the number of "guns" in private ownership, and for that reason alone probably best not pursued with any vigor. But the general principle is wrong, an Englishman (Irishman, Welshman or Scot) ought to be able to chose to use a bow to kill a deer he would otherwise be entitled to kill. The ethics of making himself proficient, of knowing his quarry, of sharpening his broadhead and everything else pursuant to making a good kill should be his responsibility. It's not the reason I moved away from the UK, but it's at least one reason I'll never move back.

 

[stubear]

I doubt your viewing of forum or other social media responses is representative.

After all, people rarely post about anything easy or successful- how boring is that! Would a car driver post “well, went out turned the key, car started, and I drove off…”? No, they post, about issues and problems.

Same with hunting. After all, who wants to read a post “got out of the car, loaded the gun (or nocked an arrow), walked 20 yards, sat down, deer came out, shot it cleanly and I was back in the car in 30 minutes.” ?

No agreed, but I see a shed load more of that sort of post during bow season than I do during rifle season - that’s my point.

 

[JH83]

True - the whole structure of hunting here makes a huge difference, and the tiered nature of the seasons-by-weapon acts as a strong push for individual hunters to pursue multiple disciplines. Coming from the UK I don't think I would have even considered archery hunting but for the massive increase in the opportunities to hunt that it affords the sportsman. I'm glad I did though - it made me a better hunter.

By the same logic, should open sights be forbidden for shooting deer in the UK?

Sure - the incidence of a "bang-flop" (or maybe "thwack-flop") must be infinitesimally smaller with bow vice rifle, but so what - by far the most recommended rifle shot is the heart-lung - the majority of deer shot this way with a rifle will also run. It's also much easier to know if you made a "clean miss" with a bow. In addition, if you do miss, you'll often get a good opportunity for a second arrow (I have experienced this). I have even heard it claimed (although not witnessed) that a deer struck with a well placed arrow may appear not to realize it has been struck at all. IIRC correctly that claim was made by a Danish hunter on the Pace Bros' podcast. I'd like to believe that's possible - but I don't think it's necessary for the bow to be an "ethical" weapon.

quite - surely sport hunting is the only "pure" form of hunting?

absolutely - reaching for a bow in the first instance to meet a cull target would be like trying to do the weekly supermarket shop on a cafe racer. The impracticality of a single seat motorcycle for grocery shopping doesn't invalidate it for, for example going to see a friend. And if the ride is a more enjoyable experience than making the same journey in the car (utterly subjective example, if you don't like bikes I'm sure you insert your own analogue) then your life just got richer.

I agree, although I think you should beware the sentiment that the justification for hunting is that it can reduce deer numbers. There's no shame in hunting because you want to hunt. There's no shame in enjoying a hard hunt. And it is surely a reasonable measure of your ability in any activity to be successful against progressively worse odds? What other standard is there?

Good for you! Seriously, you're more than likely a much better archer than I. Have you honestly never felt the desire to take it off the range and do it for real? I assume from your previous comments that you lack the confidence in the bow to deliver a quick clean kill - are you sure you're not just parroting the well-intentioned but faintly silly speed, velocity, energy etc requirements in force in the UK? I'm with anyone who would prevent and punish the use 22LR to shoot deer, and other options like 410 slugs are worryingly weedy in the energy department - but it isn't as if bows and arrows don't have a well documented and proven ability to kill cleanly over literally thousands of years of human history and development. To be sure, I'd be pretty upset with anyone trying to hunt with a dull broadhead - just as I'm sure we'd both be disgusted by somebody shooting a deer with an FMJ.

I think you're right about this - I also think that any serious attempt to allow archery-for-deer in the UK would be couched in terms of it being desirable as means to reducing the number of "guns" in private ownership, and for that reason alone probably best not pursued with any vigor. But the general principle is wrong, an Englishman (Irishman, Welshman or Scot) ought to be able to chose to use a bow to kill a deer he would otherwise be entitled to kill. The ethics of making himself proficient, of knowing his quarry, of sharpening his broadhead and everything else pursuant to making a good kill should be his responsibility. It's not the reason I moved away from the UK, but it's at least one reason I'll never move back.

Crikey, that’s a lotta questions lol

I think we are on a similar page, but I’d hold firm that a rifle is far better at putting deer down quickly. A bow, no matter how powerful, is simply stabbing a beast, and bleeding it out…often fairly slowly. Anyone who has processed a few deer shot with a rifle can see the destroyed meat around the wound channel, and broth inside the rib cage that used to be the heart/lungs-and it’s evident that the damage is much more extensive. I think that’s incontestable.

Of course I’d of loved to take a deer with a bow. Calling a roe or sika into close quarters would be intense. But in this day and age, in the UK with the amount of folks using our woodland as their playground, the need to cull ever more, and scrutiny from antis on ethics I’m not sure it’d be especially prudent.

 

[Cootmeurer]

No agreed, but I see a shed load more of that sort of post during bow season than I do during rifle season - that’s my point.

Personally I believe that is more a function of the younger or more “social network” comfortable generation.

In the old days, you often had to either learn through trial and error or have a mentor you could ask for help. With the newer people they seem to have much less problem posting anything publicly, no matter how dumb, damaging or deranged.

We routinely have Wildlife Law Enforcement Officers make arrests or citations on people that have self incriminated by posting stupid stuff on social media.

 

[Dunwaters]

If arrows were stamped with the licence number of the hunter they belonged to, it would be pretty easy to identify whether beasties left with arrows sticking out of them were the work of legal hunters (and if so, exactly who), or illegal hunters.

And just how do you think that would work?
If you take a standard field point, unscrew the head from the shaft and replace it with a broadhead you now have a hunting arrow with no license number. Arrows are also pretty fragile and often break.
The problem with regulating or trying to regulate very basic tools is that they are easily made. I used to make bows and arrows when I was wearing short pants.I spent hours stalking sparrows, starlings and the neighbours cat, totally without success but I never got tired trying.
Personally I don’t see any valid reason for the ban, here it came about for two reasons, firstly we copied your legislation and secondly, back in the 70’s bow hunting was nowhere near as popular as it has become.
We legislated it away by default without any real discussion rather than as a result of deliberate policy.

 

[Smellydog]

Archery got bad pressure here due to numpties using pointed arrows. Makes for good journalism unlike an unseen pellet, shotgun or air and or a 22 bullet under the skin of a deer!
Education on the necessity for a broadhead is all that was required.
We don't see it in the press so much now, not because it doesn't happen, no it's because even the numpties have learnt what arrow to use!

 

[User00053]

Yes!

 

[smokey]

Good Afternoon all,

I've scrubbed over the past forums however given the rise in popularity over the last couple of years both with our cousins across the pond and on the continent I was curious as to where the community stands on this issue now.

I myself have participated in the sport in the states and found that the effectiveness with which a bow puts down game is comparable to a rifle in terms of ethics (providing your placement is good and range within your capabilities). However understand the legislative issues that could be brought into play. For those who haven't yet been exposed to bowhunting I recommend watching this film. It truly shows in my opinion what bowhunting is all about.



My position is as follows:

Bowhunting should be legalised in the UK in the same way that rifle hunting is. It should require a slot on the FAC specifying that a bow can be used for game. It is then down to land owners whether or not a bow can be used for their deer. Legislation should then be put into place requiring minimum draw weight, grain weight and type of broadhead used. It is then down to individuals and hunting outfitters to ensure that they (or their clients) are competent with the equipment.

I'd appreciate opinions and any good/bad experiences that people have had with this method of taking game.

I do request we keep it civil as I know this is a marmite subject for many!

I look forward to having my mind changed or my position affirmed!

we shoot deer for conservation and control in the uk not sport ? think about ?

 

[shakey jake]

we shoot deer for conservation and control in the uk not sport ? think about ?

thats just not true, some might like to pretend its true.

 

[LeftHandGuy]

we shoot deer for conservation and control in the uk not sport ? think about ?

It's certainly less controversial to use the language of "conservation" and "management", but let's be honest about this, the vast majority of people who shoot deer do so because they chose to do so. It is a recreational activity. Wild deer are game, not livestock or vermin or pest. Most of the rifles used have a "Sporter" profile barrel and the restrictions concerning daylight and artificial light are all in place to facilitate good sportsmanship.

 

[Tim.243]

It's certainly less controversial to use the language of "conservation" and "management", but let's be honest about this, the vast majority of people who shoot deer do so because they chose to do so. It is a recreational activity. Wild deer are game, not livestock or vermin or pest. Most of the rifles used have a "Sporter" profile barrel and the restrictions concerning daylight and artificial light are all in place to facilitate good sportsmanship.

You missed out seasons which 2 of the 6 have none (Scotland red males( for a reason. A few muntjac escaped many years ago now are living very well in a good part of England. So to "conserve " the understory of which they feed on in many woodland arears they are shot all year round also their breeding cycle has a big part to play. Night licences are issued when the need is required. They all come under the deer act which governs the act of shooting them.