BASC deer stalkers register - this is not a slight to those without DSC2

[martyn52]

So as a farmer I’m responsible for my employees in the workplace, which is the whole farm and if I give someone permission (paid or not) to shot on my land I’m ultimately responsible for their actions according to the HSE on the Safe use of guns in the work place.



So I have a deer problem and Mr I’ve been shooting 20 yrs turns up with no qualifications and there’s is an accident involving the shooter I’m in the sh*t, because I should have gone through the safe use of firearms with him and what do I know about firearms.



Another stalker turns up with (as you put it) his shiny DSC 1 2 quality qualifications he’s already started ticking a few box’s for me, because I can say I’d checked his qualifications and I’ve done what the HSE have asked for.



HSE

SAFE USE OF GUNS.

Introduction

This guidance is for employers and others whose work

involves the use of rifles and shotguns, for example

gamekeepers and farmers. Following this advice will

help ensure that you use your gun safely and meet

your legal obligations. It is not a substitute for proper

instruction and training.

This information sheet replaces the previous HSE

publication Guns (AS7).

What the law says

Employers and people who ‘conduct an undertaking’

involving the use of guns have a legal duty under the

Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to take all

reasonably practicable measures so that no one is put

at risk.

In this sense, an ‘undertaking’ does not necessarily

need to involve employment or commercial gain.

The duty may extend to a wide range of individuals,

including farm staff, gamekeepers, beaters, pickers-

up, drivers, guests, volunteers and members of the

public. In addition, employees have responsibilities

for their own health and safety and for that of other

people who may be put at risk by their work.



Training and supervision

Anybody handling a gun ought to have received

instruction on safe use. In addition, training on safe

use is a legal requirement for all those using work

equipment. This includes guns when used as part of

a work activity. Suitable training courses are available

and useful contacts are listed in the ‘Find out more’

section. Close supervision of inexperienced gun users

is usually appropriate. This is a legal requirement for

employees.

 

[jall55]

So as a farmer I’m responsible for my employees in the workplace, which is the whole farm and if I give someone permission (paid or not) to shot on my land I’m ultimately responsible for their actions according to the HSE on the Safe use of guns in the work place.



So I have a deer problem and Mr I’ve been shooting 20 yrs turns up with no qualifications and there’s is an accident involving the shooter I’m in the sh*t, because I should have gone through the safe use of firearms with him and what do I know about firearms.



Another stalker turns up with (as you put it) his shiny DSC 1 2 quality qualifications he’s already started ticking a few box’s for me, because I can say I’d checked his qualifications and I’ve done what the HSE have asked for.



HSE

SAFE USE OF GUNS.

Introduction

This guidance is for employers and others whose work

involves the use of rifles and shotguns, for example

gamekeepers and farmers. Following this advice will

help ensure that you use your gun safely and meet

your legal obligations. It is not a substitute for proper

instruction and training.

This information sheet replaces the previous HSE

publication Guns (AS7).

What the law says

Employers and people who ‘conduct an undertaking’

involving the use of guns have a legal duty under the

Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to take all

reasonably practicable measures so that no one is put

at risk.

In this sense, an ‘undertaking’ does not necessarily

need to involve employment or commercial gain.

The duty may extend to a wide range of individuals,

including farm staff, gamekeepers, beaters, pickers-

up, drivers, guests, volunteers and members of the

public. In addition, employees have responsibilities

for their own health and safety and for that of other

people who may be put at risk by their work.



Training and supervision

Anybody handling a gun ought to have received

instruction on safe use. In addition, training on safe

use is a legal requirement for all those using work

equipment. This includes guns when used as part of

a work activity. Suitable training courses are available

and useful contacts are listed in the ‘Find out more’

section. Close supervision of inexperienced gun users

is usually appropriate. This is a legal requirement for

employees.

Indeed - but you can see where it will end up
DSC equivalent for Pigeon
Fox
Vermin

Chainsaw
Off road driving
Use of dogs

etc etc etc I just think its a slippery slope

 

[Stalker62]

Indeed - but you can see where it will end up...

I just think its a slippery slope

They are already doing it...

 

[User00053]

Company that I worked for which employed numerous keepers and associated staff on shoot days and other times used a consultant
to advise on all matters of health and safety producing reams of paper work which in turn covered everyone concerned with ongoing training courses in most things under the sun but ticked all the boxs and business as usual
Late nineties then employer told me I was doing level one etc as it was wise to do so, not long after larder got demolished

 

[User00053]

They are already doing it...


View attachment 349417

Definitely a position with opportunity to meet interesting and attractive people with perquisites.

 

[levigsp]

I appreciate the fact that if you are not a member of BASC you may not see updates on the successes it achieves that you benefit from. For example BASC recently played a key role in stopping a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets for live quarry and target shooting. That is perhaps a benefit to you and 1-2 million others? Would you agree?

I was a member of wagbi and then basc. I was disgruntled with them on the run up to the lead ban in England(wildfowl) I was instrumental in meetings held in various parts of Scotland between wildfowlers, Basc, Countryside alliance etc . I amongst a lot of fellow fowlers, game keepers etc all heard the BAsc state that the ban was through in England and it would soon go through in Scotland and why they AGREED with it etc. I could go on but you and everyone who wants to see, will see the point. The BASC have taken our money for years and have made promises etc but only given back small token gestures whilst having their hands held by the other country organisations. My last word as I know there are none as blind as those who do not wish to see--- I am too long in the tooth and seen to many kidders to be fooled by false gods and promise.

 

[baguio]

As stoker 150 stated if you have stalked for a long time the stalker you go with should be allowed to give references as to your competance and general attitude as he is the one who decides if 1 you are safe 2 if you can shoot the target at different distances prone bipod standing with sticks 3 know what deer are in season 4 that you have knowledge of bullet weights and minimum for species this is in the stalkers interest for the animals welfare I have been going to Argyle for 35 years and always take a volulntury test before heading out the stalker knows i am safe to go out at that moment in time. DSC does not always mean competent as i have heard horror stories of DSC competent (just passed) and almost kjlling the stalker as a bullet went past his leg and into the dash of his new truck the guest/ client was told not to return and never go again

Who says that the stalker you're going with is competent and safe? Competence is based on opinion unless an exam is involved.

 

[User00053]

Do think BASC has woken up and smelt the coffee so to speak a little and if a newbie in whatever area of shooting you may be interested in people tend to join some group or other initially to be “accepted” as I in the seventies joined wagbi as seemed a good idea at the time and think it was. However time moves on and tastes and climates change but if new to shooting probably a good idea to join BASC and take a view. Personally feel they had some folks pants down and not my cup of tea.

 

[DJLevine]

This is a tricky one to a point. There are a lot of different concerns over different parts of this. I think whether we like it or not mandatory training is almost inevitable at some point. Why is there this view that training is somehow there to pull apart what you already know. It should be seen as an addition to experience no? Besides, if it’s what is required and it becomes mandatory there are two choices aren’t there? On that basis do it now before it happens and the prices rise due to supply and demand!

More over, the complaints re BASC and lack of this and that from them for the money invested only demonstrates a lack of understanding of commercial finance. All these court costs etc and consultations aren’t free. The more folk that do the qualification will only add to the funds an enable them to do more for their members!

Fact is, if it is mandatory in the future and you don’t do them it may put your stalking at risk. I’d rather do the bloody courses.

I don’t think this is a slight on anyone. A lot of very experienced unqualified stalkers do a great job and a lot of qualified ones do not.

It’s a choice of the individual.

 

[finbar]

Education & intelligence are 2 different things
A work in construction we have a scheme called citb it’s ment to improve safety on site renewed every 5 years does very little for safety it’s a big money maker & a arse covering system geared at employers not employees
Am also led to believe you Carnt shoot wildfowl on the farne isles unless your in basc a could be wrong
Am in the NGO no perfect but suits ma needs a lot of old shooters a no left basc after the lead ban on wildfowl came in

 

[jall55]

This is a tricky one to a point. There are a lot of different concerns over different parts of this. I think whether we like it or not mandatory training is almost inevitable at some point. Why is there this view that training is somehow there to pull apart what you already know. It should be seen as an addition to experience no? Besides, if it’s what is required and it becomes mandatory there are two choices aren’t there? On that basis do it now before it happens and the prices rise due to supply and demand!

More over, the complaints re BASC and lack of this and that from them for the money invested only demonstrates a lack of understanding of commercial finance. All these court costs etc and consultations aren’t free. The more folk that do the qualification will only add to the funds an enable them to do more for their members!

Fact is, if it is mandatory in the future and you don’t do them it may put your stalking at risk. I’d rather do the bloody courses.

I don’t think this is a slight on anyone. A lot of very experienced unqualified stalkers do a great job and a lot of qualified ones do not.

It’s a choice of the individual.

I would rather they spent our money in real ways that matter though - rather than addressing issues that are not there

 

[Overlay]

A stalker with a bit of ground from a friendly farmer or a mate will get away with all manner of things re safety, insurance etc etc until the wheel falls off by way of a complaint or the worst thing ever a accident or worse

In the event as a farm - the farmer or mate will be interrogated by mr plod and HSE etc permission insurances all will be will be checked and the credentials of the stalker which the person who let the stalker on the ground should have been satisfied the stalker is competent, legal, trained and insured will be in the frame also.

There is a shed load of complacity in some quarters regarding certificated training, proper insurance, DUE DILIGENCE you default on these you are in the cart big time - irrespective of all that the police won’t be interested in any of that they will arrest you and anyone other persons involved if you break the law relating to firearms and the discharge of - period.

The world is changing, everyone has to evolve and train up to keep in-line particularly with shooting safety and policies I take it as MY job to be as law abiding, safe, proficient and with a ongoing progressive training policy as the norm

I train up and have to get CPD points for a bucket load of different disciplines I use in my job and which also shooting / stalkng included with that because that is my job and also my leisure activities

Why wouldn’t you do it ????? When you owe it to yourself and whoever’s ground you shooting over.

 

[jall55]

A stalker with a bit of ground from a friendly farmer or a mate will get away with all manner of things re safety, insurance etc etc until the wheel falls off by way of a complaint or the worst thing ever a accident or worse

In the event as a farm - the farmer or mate will be interrogated by mr plod and HSE etc permission insurances all will be will be checked and the credentials of the stalker which the person who let the stalker on the ground should have been satisfied the stalker is competent, legal, trained and insured will be in the frame also.

There is a shed load of complacity in some quarters regarding certificated training, proper insurance, DUE DILIGENCE you default on these you are in the cart big time - irrespective of all that the police won’t be interested in any of that they will arrest you and anyone other persons involved if you break the law relating to firearms and the discharge of - period.

The world is changing, everyone has to evolve and train up to keep in-line particularly with shooting safety and policies I take it as MY job to be as law abiding, safe, proficient and with a ongoing progressive training policy as the norm

I train up and have to get CPD points for a bucket load of different disciplines I use in my job and which also shooting / stalkng included with that because that is my job and also my leisure activities

Why wouldn’t you do it ????? When you owe it to yourself and whoever’s ground you shooting over.

Get where you are coming - but the next steps - you can see it - will be a refresher course every 2 years - then every year
How many courses / qualifications will we need ?
It just goes on and on and we are making it that way ourselves

 

[potshotpat]

Stanley Duncan in 1908,WAGBI ( Remember them) from what I've read about him. Not sure he would have been that keen on all these courses. I may be wrong, and some of our shooting organisations could be wrong too.

 

[Overlay]

Get where you are coming - but the next steps - you can see it - will be a refresher course every 2 years - then every year
How many courses / qualifications will we need ?
It just goes on and on and we are making it that way ourselves

Yep
I’ve been in that frame for years now jail55 and used to it now, there’s nothing you can do now to buy chemicals, gasses, ammunition without up to date certification, I don’t like training but I do like to be as best as I can for what I do whether it’s work or leisure someone out there is very proficient at covering their own or their companies back sides

Look at the FC they have the standard DSC1 as their annual standard test, plus L2 manual handling HSAW RAMS INS as standard plus all the paperwork and hoops to jump through

How many people have you heard for just as an example ( the forestry commission won’t give me a lease or I didn’t have the base criteria required to stop the application going in the bin). they are working to what the health and safety are telling them what to do, they have to comply

Arse covering exercises are here to stay, to be honest in some quarters you need them, but the way forward is to progress your own abilities and be compliant, also working with people who are giving you the stalking as a partnership, for the life of me I can’t see it as a problem, if it’s in your way sort it and progress, stalkers need to keep up with the flow, it’s a hard pill to swallow but it won’t be going away

 

[Boosh]

And who is it who decides whether the stalker you go with is competent?

Not Basc.

 

[DavyG]

A stalker with a bit of ground from a friendly farmer or a mate will get away with all manner of things re safety, insurance etc etc until the wheel falls off by way of a complaint or the worst thing ever a accident or worse

In the event as a farm - the farmer or mate will be interrogated by mr plod and HSE etc permission insurances all will be will be checked and the credentials of the stalker which the person who let the stalker on the ground should have been satisfied the stalker is competent, legal, trained and insured will be in the frame also.

There is a shed load of complacity in some quarters regarding certificated training, proper insurance, DUE DILIGENCE you default on these you are in the cart big time - irrespective of all that the police won’t be interested in any of that they will arrest you and anyone other persons involved if you break the law relating to firearms and the discharge of - period.

The world is changing, everyone has to evolve and train up to keep in-line particularly with shooting safety and policies I take it as MY job to be as law abiding, safe, proficient and with a ongoing progressive training policy as the norm

I train up and have to get CPD points for a bucket load of different disciplines I use in my job and which also shooting / stalkng included with that because that is my job and also my leisure activities

Why wouldn’t you do it ????? When you owe it to yourself and whoever’s ground you shooting over.

I get where you’re coming from, but does having a certificate make you safe or competent? What happened to the old days where you got to shoot over someone’s land because you came by way of recommendation.
I agree that all the T’s have to be crossed and the I’s dotted.
We live in an age of litigation.
God help us all…
DG

 

[T.eddie]

Something I find odd, if someone new joins there are often recommendations to get dsc1 as a foundation, this makes sense to me and many others I gather. If you value personal progression and bettering yourself if you've done dsc1 you would likely look to do dsc2 (not everyone will want to but again makes sense to me, not at those that choose not to) and you can do both of these with a multitude of people.

Then you have getting out on paid stalks, again makes sense if you have no ground and also if you want to learn from someone deemed competent enough that they are able to take people out as a business.

Now a quick look at say a woodland sale company and when looking at reference to deer and stalking it comes up with both dsc1 & 2 and states dsc1 is a sensible thing to ask for if you've no other way of baselining competence (this is where if you were a landowner you would lilely start if you didn't know anyone or have any recommendations for a stalker from someone you trust), it also states insurance is a must ( I'm sure we all agree on that)

Now, if you are a big estate or landowner you are likely to want a bit more from an assurance perspective so dsc2 seems a sensible place to start.

The list BASC have produced allows a selection of qualifications you hold as well as an explanation of your experience, so if someone sees your details they have a flavour of you. As I understand it the list will be provided to the landowner to review and contact the stalker they choose ( this could be any number and they could have a chat etc to get to know you better, I would expect this )

I've had a look for information on the NGO deer branch but when I go on their website can't seen to get it so not sure how their list works, I've also tried to search for it and had know luck with any posts coming up on Google relating to it other than the mentions on the threads about BASC's list which I find strange, so how does a landowner get into contact to get the details of a local and how is it assessed/what is the criteria to join it?

With regards to then having to train for things like vermin, pigeons etc, dsc has been around in some for for quite a while is my understanding, so I'm not sure why a new list would suddenly make this happen ?

 

[hoodwink]

But why do I need to join BASC when I’m happy with the SGA?

You dont need to, just ask the SGA to do the same thing.

 

[User00053]

Very much like going to university in some cases many graduates with fewer related jobs in some cases but plenty of available training to qualify some for level entry who will be over educated but gives hope and some will be lucky and have to throw more dosh at it to achieve their goals. Maybe far better pay outfitter have shot go home and forget without the romance.
Must be torment for many who want to stalk for recreational purposes.