kenbro
Well-Known Member
If I remember it right, Kenneth Noye killed a policeman ( plain clothes) in his garden with a knife and successfully pleaded not guilty.
Ken.
Home Defence
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Ken.
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
The Police Officer (DC John Fordham) was conducting surveillance on Noye's home (1985). Noye used a pitchfork to kill the officer - he argued (successfully) in Court, that he was unaware that DC Fordham was a Police Officer, and that he had acted in 'self-defence".
The surveillance operation was part of the Brink's Mat (bullion robbery) investigation. Noye was eventually sentenced to a term of imprisonment in relation to that matter.
In 1996 (whilst on 'licence' from prison), Noye stabbed Stephen Cameron to death during a 'road rage' incident. He used a knife for this killing.
Noye fled to Spain, was eventually arrested, extradited back to the UK and sentenced to 'life' for the murder of Stephen Cameron.
Noye is once again out on 'licence'...
I don't think that will help his case one little bit, as it suggests he was expecting trouble at the Derbyshire place, so stayed there overnight to intervene and took a firearm especially for the purpose.
The Police do not have to arrest but usually do in these circumstances. A suspect can be questioned under caution whilst not under arrest.
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
As an aside , I’d be willing to bet money that their are individual in the UK ( Mainland) that have firearms for self defence and most likely section 5
I’ve long held the belief that’s it’s one rule for some and a different rule for the rest of us.
NI is just one example .
I’ve long held the belief that’s it’s one rule for some and a different rule for the rest of us.
NI is just one example .
To use a firearm in England , Scotland and Wales in self defence is what they term " an absolute offence " ie IF you did it you will be convicted for it " Not sure about N. Ireland for obvious reasons .
Of course its then all about the sentence received. Military and Police can of course do a lot of things that the general public cannot like i witnessed last night with two police vehicles traveling at i guess twice the speed limit and busting through a red light junction .
Heck our certs normally state what we can shoot a target shooter cannot even go out and shoot rabbits with his 22 unless his FAC has a suitable wording .
What kind of sentence is going to be passed is the only question
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
And there’s the hat trick
Utter rubbish.
Why do you do it ? You’ve absolutely no clue what you’re talking about. That first sentence is just made up claptrap that is completely wrong.
sikamalc
Administrator
I'm amazed at how many on here think they know the law and how its applied 
Clearly, we all know members of this site who had a career in the Police force or judicial system. Therefore they will know the law and how it is applied, rather than guess work by some.
For myself, I can relay an event that happened some years back in Thanet, kent.
A well known local man who had worked in MI6 and was retired, his name was Kenneth Speakman, was murdered in his home in Ramsgate, Kent. The police at the time had little evidence to go on, and as this was before the hand gun hand in, the murdered person had a fairly large collection of working handguns. A large number of which were Luger's, liberated during WW2.
Some weeks later a large family home situated outside of Birchington, were I lived and worked at the time, was broken into by the murderer. Unfortunatley for him the owner of the house was home and was about to leave to shoot his pistols at a nearby range. The intruder had armed himself with a 357 Smith and Wesson revolver 6 inch barrel, which he had stolen from the man he murdered. The house owner in the ensuing struggle managed to get himself down into his cellar where he had his firearms stored, and locked the door. The intruder shot through the door. The house owner loaded a pistol and reurned fire through the door, hitting the intruder in the leg.
This led to the intruder leaving the premises and running, or stumbling probably, across the fields where Thanet Earth is now located.
The police arrived and a police dog tracked the intruder and found him, whilst also I believe retreaving the 357 revolver. This linked him to the Speakman murder.
My FEO at the time was a retired Police Women who was excellent and knew her job well. The house owner was arrested, but charges were later dropped and his FAC returned. The handgun hand in then kicked in a few months later and the entire collection that Mr Speakman owned was going to be scrapped. This would have been a terrible loss as some unique weapons were in the collection, Broom handle Mauser, Dreyse pistol to name but a few.
The family approached the museum I curated at the time, The Powell - Cotton Museum and we took the weapons into the collection. I was required to visit Ramsgate police station and also select a certain amount of ammunition for each calibre shortly after the DCI had bought the weapon collection to my office.
The whole collection was acsessioned into the collection.
Quoting the law on here, if you are NOT familier with it or had a career in it, is dangerous ground to walk on. Better to keep quiet and listen to those that had a career in it. Some of whom have been high ranking police officers, or long standing FEO's.
Clearly, we all know members of this site who had a career in the Police force or judicial system. Therefore they will know the law and how it is applied, rather than guess work by some.For myself, I can relay an event that happened some years back in Thanet, kent.
A well known local man who had worked in MI6 and was retired, his name was Kenneth Speakman, was murdered in his home in Ramsgate, Kent. The police at the time had little evidence to go on, and as this was before the hand gun hand in, the murdered person had a fairly large collection of working handguns. A large number of which were Luger's, liberated during WW2.
Some weeks later a large family home situated outside of Birchington, were I lived and worked at the time, was broken into by the murderer. Unfortunatley for him the owner of the house was home and was about to leave to shoot his pistols at a nearby range. The intruder had armed himself with a 357 Smith and Wesson revolver 6 inch barrel, which he had stolen from the man he murdered. The house owner in the ensuing struggle managed to get himself down into his cellar where he had his firearms stored, and locked the door. The intruder shot through the door. The house owner loaded a pistol and reurned fire through the door, hitting the intruder in the leg.
This led to the intruder leaving the premises and running, or stumbling probably, across the fields where Thanet Earth is now located.
The police arrived and a police dog tracked the intruder and found him, whilst also I believe retreaving the 357 revolver. This linked him to the Speakman murder.
My FEO at the time was a retired Police Women who was excellent and knew her job well. The house owner was arrested, but charges were later dropped and his FAC returned. The handgun hand in then kicked in a few months later and the entire collection that Mr Speakman owned was going to be scrapped. This would have been a terrible loss as some unique weapons were in the collection, Broom handle Mauser, Dreyse pistol to name but a few.
The family approached the museum I curated at the time, The Powell - Cotton Museum and we took the weapons into the collection. I was required to visit Ramsgate police station and also select a certain amount of ammunition for each calibre shortly after the DCI had bought the weapon collection to my office.
The whole collection was acsessioned into the collection.
Quoting the law on here, if you are NOT familier with it or had a career in it, is dangerous ground to walk on. Better to keep quiet and listen to those that had a career in it. Some of whom have been high ranking police officers, or long standing FEO's.
Morkai
Well-Known Member
Remember though, Bowland thinks the UK is classed as a terrorist nation by the USA!!
Pay it no mind.
I have mentioned NI in my post this morning . However you are wrong about this , anyone who ever does use a firearm will if proved face the conviction . Just about what that sentence given is . Research it , its why self defence can not used as good reason to acquire.
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
Rubbish
So every person who has shot someone dead has been found guilty of an offence ?
That’s what you’re saying right ?
maximus otter
Well-Known Member
"Householders and the use of force against intruders
Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgments over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in self-defence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.What amounts to disproportionate force?
I’ve heard I can use that. The force you use must always be reasonable in the circumstances as you believe them to be. Where you are defending yourself or others from intruders in your home it might still be reasonable in the circumstances for you to use a degree of force that is subsequently considered to be disproportionate, perhaps if you are acting in extreme circumstances in the heat of the moment and don’t have a chance to thinkabout exactly how much force would be necessary to repel the intruder: it might seem reasonable to you at the time but with hindsight, your actions may seem disproportionate. The law will give you the benefit of the doubt in these circumstances."
"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."
Criminal Law Act 1967
An Act to amend the law of England and Wales by abolishing the division of crimes into felonies and misdemeanours and to amend and simplify the law in respect of matters arising from or related to that division or the abolition of it; to do away (within or without England and Wales) with certain...
Self-Defence and the Prevention of Crime
Wikipedia on self-defence:
Self-defence in English law - Wikipedia
maximus otter
Pete1774
Well-Known Member
If you shoot and kill someone, regardless of the circumstances, you will initially be arrested on suspicion of murder. Your guns will be confiscated. You will be held in custody and appear before a magistrate who will decide if you will be release on bail until your trial in Crown Court. The actual charges will be decided by the Crown Prosecution Service and that could take many, many months. Remember it is not the police who decide if your actions were justified, only a court can do that. It is unlikely you will ever get your guns back or get another FAC.I was under the impression that you were legally allowed to use your firearms for self-defence "if" you felt that your life was at risk. Considering the robber that's survived is getting charged with "aggravated burglary" which is defined as burglary with "any firearm or imitation firearm, any weapon of offence, or any explosive", I am slightly curious as to why the farmer's been charged as well.
Granted, many details not in the current news, but makes me curious...
Whaley Bridge: Farmer held over burglary shooting death
The man is being detained on suspicion of murder following the shooting, the BBC understands.www.bbc.co.uk
Dates matter a lot , Laws change ( frequently) ! Otherwise nobody would be shooting deer with NV , the whole self defence thing has changed many times , just like any law even the crazy one that is driving on hard shoulders of the motorways . use of firearms has been what it termed an "absolute offence" for a goodly length of time , the sentencing could be " say sorry and don't do it again" or far greater .I'm amazed at how many on here think they know the law and how its applied
For myself, I can relay an event that happened some years back in Thanet, kent.
A well known local man who had worked in MI6 and was retired, his name was Kenneth Speakman, was murdered in his home in Ramsgate, Kent. The police at the time had little evidence to go on, and as this was before the hand gun hand in, the murdered person had a fairly large collection of working handguns. A large number of which were Luger's, liberated during WW2.
Some weeks later a large family home situated outside of Birchington, were I lived and worked at the time, was broken into by the murderer. Unfortunatley for him the owner of the house was home and was about to leave to shoot his pistols at a nearby range. The intruder had armed himself with a 357 Smith and Wesson revolver 6 inch barrel, which he had stolen from the man he murdered. The house owner in the ensuing struggle managed to get himself down into his cellar where he had his firearms stored, and locked the door. The intruder shot through the door. The house owner loaded a pistol and reurned fire through the door, hitting the intruder in the leg.
This led to the intruder leaving the premises and running, or stumbling probably, across the fields where Thanet Earth is now located.
The police arrived and a police dog tracked the intruder and found him, whilst also I believe retreaving the 357 revolver. This linked him to the Speakman murder.
My FEO at the time was a retired Police Women who was excellent and knew her job well. The house owner was arrested, but charges were later dropped and his FAC returned. The handgun hand in then kicked in a few months later and the entire collection that Mr Speakman owned was going to be scrapped. This would have been a terrible loss as some unique weapons were in the collection, Broom handle Mauser, Dreyse pistol to name but a few.
The family approached the museum I curated at the time, The Powell - Cotton Museum and we took the weapons into the collection. I was required to visit Ramsgate police station and also select a certain amount of ammunition for each calibre shortly after the DCI had bought the weapon collection to my office.
The whole collection was acsessioned into the collection.
Quoting the law on here, if you are NOT familier with it or had a career in it, is dangerous ground to walk on. Better to keep quiet and listen to those that had a career in it. Some of whom have been high ranking police officers, or long standing FEO's.
I did have to study law around this kind of thing in a previous profession
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
No, they have not been found guilty, but they have almost invariably been charged.
We changed our law re self defence a few years ago, we can use force to defend ourselves within our home or the cartilage thereof and we don’t have to retreat.
The reason the minister gave for this change is that juries had consistently refused to convict homeowners who defended themselves.
I can think of only one case in the last 40 odd years where charges were not brought, in that case a homeowner shot 2 burglars, killing one with a .22.
Pete1774
Well-Known Member
You would find out at the end of your trial.
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