Steel shot being ingested

[Heym SR20]

Steel, or rather iron is an essential mineral for life. Blood is full of iron within the haemoglobin and key part of mechanism to transport oxygen to the cells.

All animals and bird need a constant supply of iron in their diet and without it you become anaemic.

The body will breakdown food stuffs and absorb through the gut linings. It has mechanisms to control the amount absorbed with excess passing straight through or secreted in the urine.

Given the acidic nature of stomach acids solid iron particles will dissolve somewhat in the stomach and thus be bioavailable to animal through the gut. Iron pellets in a gizard will be subject to wear / abrasion from other grit particles and will eventually pass through. The gizzard has a constant flow through of particles aling with food stuffs - its why birds are constantly eating grit.

Too much iron is harmful, but mostly the body is able regulate and get rid of excess iron. There are conditions where this mechanism breaks down and too much iron accumulates which can lead to other problems.

 

[Tf223]

Steel, or rather iron is an essential mineral for life. Blood is full of iron within the haemoglobin and key part of mechanism to transport oxygen to the cells.

All animals and bird need a constant supply of iron in their diet and without it you become anaemic.

The body will breakdown food stuffs and absorb through the gut linings. It has mechanisms to control the amount absorbed with excess passing straight through or secreted in the urine.

Given the acidic nature of stomach acids solid iron particles will dissolve somewhat in the stomach and thus be bioavailable to animal through the gut. Iron pellets in a gizard will be subject to wear / abrasion from other grit particles and will eventually pass through. The gizzard has a constant flow through of particles aling with food stuffs - its why birds are constantly eating grit.

Too much iron is harmful, but mostly the body is able regulate and get rid of excess iron. There are conditions where this mechanism breaks down and too much iron accumulates which can lead to other problems.

Indeed, after too many guinesses I find my body expels the excess iron with no problem at all

 

[jall55]

At the BASC wildfowling conference in Cheltenham, the Government speaker, who said lead would be banned no matter what BASC members thought, said that the RSPCA might be concerned about excessive wounding with steel shot as opposed to clean kills with lead shot.

I was thinking more" welfare line" - the birds wandering round with gizzards full of steel

 

[timbrayford]

No, virtually every single time a bird is detected as having lead in its gizzard, it is down to hunting and hunters because we are the only ones who routinely distribute lead in the form of small shot.
It doesn’t occur naturally and no one else uses distributes it into the environment.

And you've found it personally or is it a case of a friend of a friend who heard it from a friend of Packham?

 

[Dunwaters]

And you've found it personally or is it a case of a friend of a friend who heard it from a friend of Packham?

No, I have not personally found shot of any type in a bird’s gizzard.
Due in no small measure to the fact that I have never, not even once, had the slightest interest or inclination to cut one open and rummage through it.
We have laboratory staff for that type of thing.

 

[jall55]

No, I have not personally found shot of any type in a bird’s gizzard.
Due in no small measure to the fact that I have never, not even once, had the slightest interest or inclination to cut one open and rummage through it.
We have laboratory staff for that type of thing.

I must admit i have done and have never found any
When we shot lots of pigeon thats how you checked what they were eating

I also do it sometimes with game birds to see if they are pulling into covers for the supplementary food (really for the finches) or are on the wheat

 

[bogtrotter]

Thanks Tim
I was just thinking that if steel does not break down - will it not eventually fill the gizzard or do you think the bird will simply not need to take in any further "grit" as its full - i thought birds picked stones grit to get minerals and things too - so where i say starve i perhaps mean - will they not be starved of nutrients

I wonder then about tungsten ?

They might rust , I'll get my coat.

 

[Dunwaters]

I must admit i have done and have never found any
When we shot lots of pigeon thats how you checked what they were eating

I also do it sometimes with game birds to see if they are pulling into covers for the supplementary food (really for the finches) or are on the wheat

I do open up the crop on a pigeon or pheasant now and again.
That makes sense.
I just can’t be arsed dredging through the gizzards entrails and other bits I have no intention of eating every single time I dress a bird.
I don’t rummage around with deer or rabbits either.
Guts out, quick inspection and on to the next project.

 

[Heym SR20]

Thanks Tim
I was just thinking that if steel does not break down - will it not eventually fill the gizzard or do you think the bird will simply not need to take in any further "grit" as its full - i thought birds picked stones grit to get minerals and things too - so where i say starve i perhaps mean - will they not be starved of nutrients

I wonder then about tungsten ?

Grit in the Gizzard is there instead of teeth. The purpose of grit is too act as grinding media to break down the food. It serves the same purpose as teeth and chewing food.

As the food passes out of the gizzard the grit will go to. It’s why birds need constant access to grit cos without it seeds etc will remain whole and are much harder to digest.

 

[jall55]

Grit in the Gizzard is there instead of teeth. The purpose of grit is too act as grinding media to break down the food. It serves the same purpose as teeth and chewing food.

As the food passes out of the gizzard the grit will go to. It’s why birds need constant access to grit cos without it seeds etc will remain whole and are much harder to digest.

Yes i know
But what about the steel that is absorbed ?

In the studies after 30 day 80 odd percent of the steel remained

 

[Dunwaters]

I must admit i have done and have never found any
When we shot lots of pigeon thats how you checked what they were eating

I also do it sometimes with game birds to see if they are pulling into covers for the supplementary food (really for the finches) or are on the wheat

Are you certain that you were looking at the gizzards?
Based on your description it seems like you are checking crop contents.
The gizzard is a muscular purple lump at the start of the intestines and is impossible to check without removing the guts.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I think @jall55 raises a valid question that I have not seen asked before until this week on this forum and PigeonWatch and I can vouch for him that this is not another 'let's demonise steel shot to save lead shot' type argument. If we are to move away from lead shot to steel shot for live quarry shooting to reduce the risks of lead poisoning for birds mistaking lead shot as grit then we do need confidence that steel shot and other alternatives are not going to end up being found by scientists to be another cause of ill effect on birds from our shooting activities. As things stand I am not aware of any research showing any ill effects on birds from eating steel shot as grit.

@jall55 asked me on PigeonWatch "has any research being done on steel shot and how that is broken down by birds ?" and I shared links to two studies as follows:

Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos) - PubMed

Acute effects of lead, steel, tungsten-iron, and tungsten-polymer shot administered to game-farm mallards - PubMed

 

[Heym SR20]

I think @jall55 raises a valid question that I have not seen asked before until this week on this forum and PigeonWatch and I can vouch for him that this is not another 'let's demonise steel shot to save lead shot' type argument. If we are to move away from lead shot to steel shot for live quarry shooting to reduce the risks of lead poisoning for birds mistaking lead shot as grit then we do need confidence that steel shot and other alternatives are not going to end up being found by scientists to be another cause of ill effect on birds from our shooting activities. As things stand I am not aware of any research showing any ill effects on birds from eating steel shot as grit.

@jall55 asked me on PigeonWatch "has any research being done on steel shot and how that is broken down by birds ?" and I shared links to two studies as follows:

Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos) - PubMed

Acute effects of lead, steel, tungsten-iron, and tungsten-polymer shot administered to game-farm mallards - PubMed

Interesting studies. In particular note the effect of lead shot on ducks. I hope they had their affairs in order prior to the study.

 

[jall55]

Are you certain that you were looking at the gizzards?
Based on your description it seems like you are checking crop contents.
The gizzard is a muscular purple lump at the start of the intestines and is impossible to check without removing the guts.

View attachment 368811

Dunwater you are right - i actually mainly check the crop as shooting pigeon in the field or whatever - but i also check the gizzard on some of the pheasants - especially if we have any killed in the pens when released to see if they have been picking the grit up we provide
I think people actually eat gizzards - not for me !

 

[Buchan]

I think @jall55 raises a valid question that I have not seen asked before until this week on this forum and PigeonWatch and I can vouch for him that this is not another 'let's demonise steel shot to save lead shot' type argument. If we are to move away from lead shot to steel shot for live quarry shooting to reduce the risks of lead poisoning for birds mistaking lead shot as grit then we do need confidence that steel shot and other alternatives are not going to end up being found by scientists to be another cause of ill effect on birds from our shooting activities. As things stand I am not aware of any research showing any ill effects on birds from eating steel shot as grit.

@jall55 asked me on PigeonWatch "has any research being done on steel shot and how that is broken down by birds ?" and I shared links to two studies as follows:

Acute toxicity of lead, steel, and an iron-tungsten-nickel shot to mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos) - PubMed

Acute effects of lead, steel, tungsten-iron, and tungsten-polymer shot administered to game-farm mallards - PubMed

So, it being a bit wet outside, I have a brew and thought I'd look this up at the OP's request. The studies above only use small numbers but are in peer reviewed publications and the methods and conclusions are sound. Short version: Tungsten and steel in shot are not an issue

I've also had a look at tungsten toxicity, which is of increasing concern in people exposed to tungsten dust. In experiments where tungsten was implanted or fed at high concentrations there were muscle tumours or heart damage respectively. These are however laboratory tests and not real world tests. The above studies showed the tungsten based shot hardly deteriorated over the course of the experiment.
I've also seen papers noting that tungsten salts are rapidly eliminated from the body through urine.
Steel as others have said iron is essential for the body. Toxicity does exist, but what I've seen related to over consumption of vitamin supplements
Lead isn't found in the body and is highly toxic. It damaged haemoglobin formation and blocks many of the antioxidant pathways. Antioxidants are not just a health food shop gimmick, they are essential for normal cell function. Many biochemical reactions produce free radicals - atoms with electric charge. These have to be absorbed quickly or they lead to direct cell damage and that's what the antioxidants do.

We need to stop/minimise shooting lead into animals.

 

[jall55]

So, it being a bit wet outside, I have a brew and thought I'd look this up at the OP's request. The studies above only use small numbers but are in peer reviewed publications and the methods and conclusions are sound. Short version: Tungsten and steel in shot are not an issue

I've also had a look at tungsten toxicity, which is of increasing concern in people exposed to tungsten dust. In experiments where tungsten was implanted or fed at high concentrations there were muscle tumours or heart damage respectively. These are however laboratory tests and not real world tests. The above studies showed the tungsten based shot hardly deteriorated over the course of the experiment.
I've also seen papers noting that tungsten salts are rapidly eliminated from the body through urine.
Steel as others have said iron is essential for the body. Toxicity does exist, but what I've seen related to over consumption of vitamin supplements
Lead isn't found in the body and is highly toxic. It damaged haemoglobin formation and blocks many of the antioxidant pathways. Antioxidants are not just a health food shop gimmick, they are essential for normal cell function. Many biochemical reactions produce free radicals - atoms with electric charge. These have to be absorbed quickly or they lead to direct cell damage and that's what the antioxidants do.

We need to stop/minimise shooting lead into animals.

Buchan - does the study not show Tungsten as being the mostly absorbed / deteriorated ?

 

[Heym SR20]

So, it being a bit wet outside, I have a brew and thought I'd look this up at the OP's request. The studies above only use small numbers but are in peer reviewed publications and the methods and conclusions are sound. Short version: Tungsten and steel in shot are not an issue

I've also had a look at tungsten toxicity, which is of increasing concern in people exposed to tungsten dust. In experiments where tungsten was implanted or fed at high concentrations there were muscle tumours or heart damage respectively. These are however laboratory tests and not real world tests. The above studies showed the tungsten based shot hardly deteriorated over the course of the experiment.
I've also seen papers noting that tungsten salts are rapidly eliminated from the body through urine.
Steel as others have said iron is essential for the body. Toxicity does exist, but what I've seen related to over consumption of vitamin supplements
Lead isn't found in the body and is highly toxic. It damaged haemoglobin formation and blocks many of the antioxidant pathways. Antioxidants are not just a health food shop gimmick, they are essential for normal cell function. Many biochemical reactions produce free radicals - atoms with electric charge. These have to be absorbed quickly or they lead to direct cell damage and that's what the antioxidants do.

We need to stop/minimise shooting lead into animals.

Ahh but @Buchan there are plenty of SD members who have used lead as a condiment all their life on their food. Banning of lead is all a conspiracy and scientists are witches and should be burnt at the stake. And if its not on Fox, GB News or Truth Social its not real.

 

[jall55]

Ahh but @Buchan there are plenty of SD members who have used lead as a condiment all their life on their food. Banning of lead is all a conspiracy and scientists are witches and should be burnt at the stake. And if its not on Fox, GB News or Truth Social its not real.

No - not like that at all - not for 1 minute - i even ask BASC to attend our clay days and provide a steel tester trap

I simply dont want to jump from frying pan to fire

@Buchan
Any concerns with birds retaining steel in their gizzards - can they still get sufficient nutrients / minerals from their grit ?

Just really surprised there has been no studies

Remember its not long since that diesel cars were far far better than petrol

Vaping the answer to smoking

And so the spin goes on !

 

[Tim.243]

Ahh but @Buchan there are plenty of SD members who have used lead as a condiment all their life on their food. Banning of lead is all a conspiracy and scientists are witches and should be burnt at the stake. And if its not on Fox, GB News or Truth Social its not real.

I don't often agree with Heym SR20 but %100 with this post.
Also there is too much drama with these posts as it is just lip service which archives nothing.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@jall55 in Denmark there has been sampling done of pheasants and mallard post-lead shot ban and steel shot is now the main shot type that the birds pick up as grit. The scientists raise no concerns about that in the paper.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48693533

To assess current levels of compliance with Danish regulations, we purchased 730 carcasses of pheasants (Phasianus colchicus) and mallards (Anas platyrhynchos) and a further 690 mallard gizzards were obtained from > 14 shooting events distributed across > 10 local authority districts throughout East and West Denmark in the 2016/2017 and 2017/2018 hunting seasons. All carcasses and gizzards were subject to radiography and those that contained shot were examined, pellets removed by dissection and identified to shot type. In all, 3589 pellets (intact or fragmented) were found in 1420 carcasses/gizzards, of which 799 pellets (some fragmented) were identified. Among the sample of pheasants with embedded shot (N = 447), 1.8% (in 2016) and 2.2% (in 2017) were lead shot. Among 148 mallards in 2017 with embedded shot, 3.1% had lead shot. None of the 2017 mallard gizzards had embedded lead shot. We conclude that Danish pheasant and mallard shooters mostly comply with the lead shot regulations. Steel was the most used non-lead alternative. The majority of ingested shot was non-lead, indicating that lead shot is not generally available to pheasant and mallard and suggesting compliance with regulations in recent years/decades. The study showed that the possibility to predict the metal composition of shot pellets from X-ray images alone was highly inaccurate, confirming the necessity of necropsy to determine shot type.