Steel shot being ingested
- Thread starter jall55
- Start date
Instead of your usual sneers why not give us your actual thoughts ?
Do you use steel at all ?
Do you still use lead ?
Redleg
Well-Known Member
What about the radioactivity of tungsten?
If the bird takes it in as a form of grinding material surely it would stay in the birds gizzard and the bird would die from the radioactive debris in its gizzard.
They are not "sneers" it is an observation that with all the replies from the thread nothing will come of it "fact"
Been using lead since 1971 in air rifles, 1972 a .410 currently lead in the 12b Fibre wad
Swapped to steel when it was required
Both centre fires have lead heads...
So my thoughts are these...it is just lip service as if you want to shoot quarry with a shotgun you need a medium to use be it lead or so called "no toxic"
Hundred's of 1000's of birds die from AI (bird flu) tens of 1000's of birds are destroyed costing 10's of thousands of pounds because of it
If you want to do some real good find a cure for that then start picking at the ingested shot steel or lead...
@south-nofolk-stalker
@Conor O'Gorman
They are not "sneers" it is an observation that with all the replies from the thread nothing will come of it "fact"
Been using lead since 1971 in air rifles, 1972 a .410 currently lead in the 12b Fibre wad
Swapped to steel when it was required
Both centre fires have lead heads...
So my thoughts are these...it is just lip service as if you want to shoot quarry with a shotgun you need a medium to use be it lead or so called "no toxic"
Hundred's of 1000's of birds die from AI (bird flu) tens of 1000's of birds are destroyed costing 10's of thousands of pounds because of it
If you want to do some real good find a cure for that then start picking at the ingested shot steel or lead...
@south-nofolk-stalker
@Conor O'Gorman
Indeed - thats true we need some medium
But as usual - unfortunately - in your desperation to reply and try and score points you do yourself a disservice
10s of thousands of birds are killed by AI - but millions upon million of cartridges - maybe billions of pieces of shot are distributed throughout the country each year
As someone who i believe loves the countryside - loves nature - as do i ,surely you cant be offended by people like myself asking questions and trying to ensure we are causing as little harm as possible ?
Maybe nothing will come from it - as legislation ultimately will rule - but to probe and question is nothing to shame
Shall i copy your little friend in or will you shout him from under his bridge ?
You asked for my thoughts so you got them,
However the amount below affects every one, so that will be the many who does not live in the countryside but they will see the affect of AI when they go to feed the Swans Ducks in the parks where your lead shot never falls.
The shooting industry lost a huge amount some shut for ever not because they shoot lead but because of AI so probe and ask questions by all means but point the other finger in the direction of AI as that affects a much larger audience.
UK bird flu costs hit £50m, poultry health roadshow told - Farmers Weekly.
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Cootmeurer
Well-Known Member
Steel shot has been mandatory here in the US since around 1990. I know of no incidents whereby the birds have had any steel shot in there gizzard, let alone enough to cause health issues.
The primary complaints with steel are as follows.
1- increased crippling (largely a thing of the past, once they went to higher velocities)
2 - Chipped teeth of this eating waterfowl (everyone I know has found at least 1 pellet )
3 - Damaged meat grinders (some sauasage makers refuse to process waterfowl now)
The primary complaints with steel are as follows.
1- increased crippling (largely a thing of the past, once they went to higher velocities)
2 - Chipped teeth of this eating waterfowl (everyone I know has found at least 1 pellet )
3 - Damaged meat grinders (some sauasage makers refuse to process waterfowl now)
Yes 100% has! The gizzard is actually very good meat indeed and the only time you will find shot is you actually find lead shot while processing the Gizzard ( but that bird has a very limited life span once its there ) . Tests where done both in America and here in the Uk simple two group tests ( one with lead pellets in their water or feed one not ) , its proved - dont even go there , if there was the slightest doubt our orgs would 100% have fought tooth and nail as it is we have held the use of lead shot a heck of a long time longer for inland game than we might have been expected to .
Unlike America we where pushed into loosing lead shot , while those in the USA where motivated by conservation of an important resource ( The Hunting of Fowl on state lands ) . Its a tactic that has been used on upland birds selectively . Here its been more a carrying a big stick approach .
Personally speaking i have been on steel shot for very near to all my shotgun quarry shooting ( i still do a few pests with 410 lead ) for rifles, I am slowly switching to bismuth on that ? From our first Covid lockdown i have shot all my deer with copper and i honestly prefer it over lead , ok there is some rubbish copper bullets and some cartridges are just not suited to it - like a true 22 hornet std action ( which is too short )! Also the std 1-16 twist is too slow. no manufacturer i know of has brought out the specific hornet weight bullets and as far as i am aware there isn't any major manufacturer building the 22 hornets anyhow. Personally i have been shooting 50 grain Ecx through a 1-12 twist in a 223 on ground where i need some range on bunnies ( its rather good )
2&3 need care , 3 familly members of 5 suffered tooth damage before we learned to serve birds off the bone and well inspected before cooking . Since that no tooth damage
A BOP produces a casting/pellet from the gizzard and ejects it orally and any indigestible shot or stone etc will be wrapped up in the pellet so shot shouldn't be "stored" in the gizzard.
A traditional falconry practice is to add small stones with a raptors food to assist in their weight reduction following their moult and these stones can be counted "in" and "out" daily.
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Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
So please tell how many sick or dying birds you have found in the wild and then how many have gone through diagnosis or post mortem to ascertain how they died.
Nature has a way of dealing with sick animals or birds. They either get picked off by predators. Or they tend to hide away to try and recover but then die, and then decompose really quite quickly.
Laboratory based experiments are pretty much the only way of demonstrating these things. Do you keep chickens, ducks or young game birds? You could force feed them lead pellets and see how well they fare.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
No more than normal. How do you differentiate from one found dead bird to the next that its demise was from lead?
No ****....
Why the fook would I want to do that when there is no evidence of it happening in the wild?
What I have seen is a huge number of birds dying from a virus, agri chemicals and vehicles so I'll carry on shooting lead thanks and if some don't like that fluk off!
Next.
Also its not actually steel shot its a soft Iron ( soft in regards to steel that is ) Pretty sure wildfowl swap out the grit likewise as the gizzard is a powerful bit of kit , would it not lead to infections otherwise ??
Thanks Mickey - wonder then - if daily is the case - why would they not just cough up the lead too ?
Me neither SD and im in the woods - between September and march with 4 dogs daily
4 dogs that are used for picking up / flushing / beating
I believe that may be due to the lead being readily absorbed/ingested via it breaking down quickly, but don't quote me. I know that a raptor shows systems very quickly and they don't last very long unless treated at first sign of the poisoning, but even then not many survive.
When a raptor shows illness, they can also sometimes not be able to put the crop over (bring the pellet up) so that wouldn't help emit any remnants of the lead. it only takes a small trace of lead to cause severe poisoning.
My error. The Kelly study showed the tungsten polymer shot degraded more than the other types of shot, the Brewer study showed the tungsten shot degraded the least.
From the Brewer study it looks like most of the pellets stayed in the gizzard. Would this affect nutrition? the steel would provide some abrasion of food, possibly less than true grit(shards of stone) as the latter will be more irregular in size and shape. would this matter - I doubt it as the ducks will keep replacing the grit, so the small quantity ingested won't have any significant effect.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Do your own research. There are plenty of papers on ingestion of lead pellets by game birds, where they then post mortem analysis along with blood and tissue sample testing. This does require scientific analysis.
I doubt many of us on SD can pick up a dead animal or bird that we find in the wild and state with confidence how it died. I certainly cannot.
You claim you have never found a dead animal or bird that has died of lead poisoning - how can you state this with any certainty?
The exception of course is those that we shoot.
As regards what is in the gizzard, again I doubt many bother opening them and cleaning them when preparing shot birds for the table. Most of the guts will go straight into the bin.
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