Gloucestershire Police - Requiring Training before Shotgun Certificate Grant

[Twodogs]

With regards the course in question, one has to question why THIS particular course has been specifically chosen? Was there an open and fair tender process etc? Vested interests etc?

Why is this course suitable? What does it include? Has it been validated? And if so against what criteria? Has it been peer review assessed?
Are the course organisers competent, or even qualified, to assess competence and what are they assessing competence against?

The bottom line is the course is not mandated in law, or even guidance, so cannot be enforced.

 

[nf-fuse]

With regards the course in question, one has to question why THIS particular course has been specifically chosen? Was there an open and fair tender process etc? Vested interests etc?

Why is this course suitable? What does it include? Has it been validated? And if so against what criteria? Has it been peer review assessed?
Are the course organisers competent, or even qualified, to assess competence and what are they assessing competence against?

The bottom line is the course is not mandated in law, or even guidance, so cannot be enforced.

True but people who are coming to their first application it's very intimidating if the police take this attitude.

 

[Utectok]

I’m may be being stupid but I don’t think the police can insist on any training to get a certificate. I’d be writing to the chief constable politely to ask what the legal basis for this instruction was?

 

[cjm1066]

I can buy a Ferrari capable of 200mph with no driving license or insurance. Perhaps those who want compulsory training can advise the Goverment on the need for this?

Alas my bank manager said no to the Ferrari but allowed me a family car capable of 100mph, alas that's over kill according to the anology in this thread?

 

[KimE]

How many documented example of these idiots can you give? Plenty buy a chainsaw every year without instruction or training, even a kitchen knife.

Why do existing gun owners think they know best? Then want additional barriers into entering the sport.
likely anybody applying for a firearm has the common sense to understand the responsibility that comes with it.

So to get a shotgun we make up the law must do a course £450

For range use we have the NRA safe shooters card.

then for applications for a centerfire to shoot foxes £500 course and minimum one years mentoring.

then for deer shooting DSC1 and DSC2 and minimum of one years mentoring.

Is that really the sort of way we want it to go, if it ain’t broken don’t fix it.


“certificate. I am lead to believe the training is basically Ian Coley's Starter pack for £450”

There are plenty of commercial clay shooting grounds and clay clubs that will give basic training for a lot less than £450 sounds like they have done deal with Ian Coleys.

In Sweden a £450 course would be the whole hunting examina 22lr, shotgun and biggame rifle. Typically 10 lessons in theory of guns and hunting, 4-5 times on the range and tests both theory and shooting. After you have passed the police consider you to have a need of 4 (6 after a few years) shotguns/rifles for the intended game you are going to hunt. You dont have any visits from the police unless you have done something criminal. In my area you also have easy to find a hunting ground too and its affordable the main cost is fuel and vehicles.

 

[KimE]

I can buy a Ferrari capable of 200mph with no driving license or insurance. Perhaps those who want compulsory training can advise the Goverment on the need for this?

Alas my bank manager said no to the Ferrari but allowed me a family car capable of 100mph, alas that's over kill according to the anology in this thread?

Ferrari demands you to take their driving course to buy a Ferrari from them they dont like to many accidents ruin their reputation.

 

[cjm1066]

I can only dream of a secondhand Ferrari

 

[Dickie]

Well if they can demand this for a new application with nothing in law for it what’s to stop them demanding that our records show no training or certification for your shotgun we will grant your renewal on us receiving a copy of training.

 

[3595wilk]

I’m may be being stupid but I don’t think the police can insist on any training to get a certificate. I’d be writing to the chief constable politely to ask what the legal basis for this instruction was?

You can't write to him. He has been suspended for gross misconduct .....nothing like setting an example for your staff to follow......

BBC News - Chief constable suspended over misconduct claim

Gloucestershire chief constable suspended over misconduct claim

Rod Hansen, of Gloucestershire Police, is being investigated over possible gross misconduct.

www.bbc.com

 

[Frank Homes]

Utter rubbish
A sgc is an entitlement in the UK

They can only refuse if they have a good reason and cannot insist on training / shooting permission/ gun security etc etc

This sort of garbage needs push back .

I have a friend who is an FEO, the very first case he dealt with was the grant of a shotgun certificate; his manager's policy was, applicants' had to have some experience before he would approve any application. This applicant had never fired a shotgun so the FEO insisted he had at least one lesson. On advivce from BASC and 'friends' the applicant point blankly refused arguing as others on here have, that there is no requirement and that a certificate 'shall' be granted etc. His application was refused and he appealed to the Crown Court... result.. appeal dismissed! The judge said it was reasonable to assume that the applicant could be a danger to public safety if he was granted a certificate without any tuition or experience. The case only remained at a local level so didn't set a precedent but it is interesting nonetheless.

 

[Liveonce]

I have a friend who is an FEO, the very first case he dealt with was the grant of a shotgun certificate; his manager's policy was, applicants' had to have some experience before he would approve any application. This applicant had never fired a shotgun so the FEO insisted he had at least one lesson. On advivce from BASC and 'friends' the applicant point blankly refused arguing as others on here have, that there is no requirement and that a certificate 'shall' be granted etc. His application was refused and he appealed to the Crown Court... result.. appeal dismissed! The judge said it was reasonable to assume that the applicant could be a danger to public safety if he was granted a certificate without any tuition or experience. The case only remained at a local level so didn't set a precedent but it is interesting nonetheless.

indeed thank you for posting, I think we most likely all agree that a basic experience of use and safe handling of a shotgun prior to applying for a certificate is sensible, it’s just how that is arrived at or determined that is the issue and a mandatory course by some random clay ground costing £450 is unacceptable and not required in law.

 

[Stalker62]

The judge said it was reasonable to assume that the applicant could be a danger to public safety if he was granted a certificate without any tuition or experience.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would be granted access to any firearm without some form of training.

Were it down to me, I could make it a condition of any grant.





Cannot see why on earth that view would agitate some readers...

 

[Liveonce]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would be granted access to any firearm without some form of training.

Were it down to me, I could make it a condition of any grant.





Cannot see why on earth that view would agitate some readers...

possibly because the likes of NRA building an empire, I would substitute training with experience.

 

[shakey jake]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would be granted access to any firearm without some form of training.

Were it down to me, I could make it a condition of any grant.





Cannot see why on earth that view would agitate some readers...

What level of training? Is there a course available from a recognised education establishment?
This to me is a classic example of police muscle flexing, no basis in law.
The police should up hold the law not invent it

 

[GlennUK]

GlosPol are just totally under resourced, which leads to poor decision making. I'm lucky that I live in TVP land, right on the border with Gloucestershire, so administratively, have all FAC decisions made by TVP. But I do have a few permissions over there on the dark side.......so have been exposed to GlosPol decision making at its finest.

One example from a couple of years ago, occurred when I asked for land to be reassessed; as according to the national database it was cleared for .22LR use only. I wanted to use WMR.

They point blank refused to engage, telling me to address any queries to them via my FEO.......and finally was told they would not reassess and stuck with stating it was only suitable for LR.......while in my estimation it's safe for CF......and at the time of asking, I was on a closed ticket.

Luckily, my FEO is a pragmatist, and forwarded me the email chain, so I had contact details for the GlopPol decision maker.

I then asked why they had then decided to issue a FAC for HMR ownership to the land controller on a closed condition for that specific piece of land....if it was only suitable for .22LR.

Radio silence for about 6 weeks, then an admission that they had made an administrative error and WMR was fine too obviously........but no, we won't come out and reassess for CF use.......we were right about that.......

I won't bore you with the saga of an acquaintance who is still awaiting his FAC from GlosPol.......and the hoops he has had to jump through as well as the obvious blockers they have attempted on his application journey........I do hope he feels able to share publicly once it's issued......just bloody mindedness at its finest.

Knowing how to clean a shotgun as a key indicator of competence for ownership, seems about right for a successful application in GlosPol.......

next it iwll be how to polish the car to a decent shine as a pre=requisuite for driving licencing purposes.

 

[Rusty Gate]

The person in question has been out with me several times and I’d say 90-95% of his clay shooting will be when he comes with me to a clay ground.

The FEO also said he needs to no how to “clean and dismantle” a shotgun

They’re determined to cause an accident!

 

[Liveonce]

What level of training? Is there a course available from a recognised education establishment?
This to me is a classic example of police muscle flexing, no basis in law.
The police should up hold the law not invent it

I am sure the CPSA would welcome it with open arms they have qualified coaches at Clay grounds all round the country as do BASC so the empire would start to be built. I am for anybody applying for a SGC to gain experience first which is just common sense, but that can be done it lots of different ways as has been the case for decades.

 

[Stalker62]

This to me is a classic example of police muscle flexing, no basis in law.

Your distrust of the Police is well documented (as is your history with at least one of them).

However, sometimes (just sometimes) maybe the Police are just trying to keep people safe?

 

[3595wilk]

Your distrust of the Police is well documented (as is your history with at least one of them).

However, sometimes (just sometimes) maybe the Police are just trying to keep people safe?

Totally agree with the need to balance the need to keep the public safe and providing a suitable service for people requesting access to licensed items for legitimate purposes.

The issue is the regional disparity in doing so; which breeds suspicion and frustration and undermines confidence in a national system that is ripe for overhaul.

Lots of factors around why this is so - and not solely related to licence applications - but to apparently change a policy position without communicating the alteration in stance and providing a rationale for doing so, is just poor.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Hi All,

Has anyone else come across a requirement by Gloucs Police to complete "Training" before they will grant you a shotgun certificate? Just been asked about this as they have asked someone to obtain training before they will grant his certificate. I am lead to believe the training is basically Ian Coley's Starter pack for £450. I am not suggesting there is a link between Ian's and Gloucs FEOs but seems very odd to specify such a requirement which is no where in the legislation.

I have already messaged @Conor O'Gorman to flag it with BASC and emailed them for advice so just seeing if anyone else on here has been subjected to a ludicrous request like this.

Ta D-I

Doesn't Basc do a 'competent shotgun/safety course? It's a few hours, and when I did it a lot cheaper than £450. I did it at a shooting school in the Forest of Dean, contact them? Link: DBC Leisure - Home