Lead update.

[Dunwaters]

I keep posting this until I am blue in the face. But why has the New Zealand system not been suggested for the UK? I suggest because, the truth is the February 2020 document circulated by BASC was to protect its investment in the then British Game Alliance and an attempt to defend the then under attack by Wild Justice justify commercial "big bag" shooting as harvesting game meat for the marketplace.

The UK is now OUT of the EU and, again, that leave was promoted as enabling us to make our own laws. But of course commercial "big bag" shot game is often sold in the EU. So I'll ask again "cui bono"? Who benefits? And second is that the why has the New Zealand system not been suggested for the UK? Is it because it would not suit this defence of harvesting game meat of the "big bag" commercial shoots?

So, again, as said before everybody who along with the CPSA who also did not sign or who did not agree with that February 2020 round-robin gets thrown under the bus and any attempt to now resist the HSE proposals is rebuked by reference to the "voice of shooting" and others having themselves suggested an "end to lead shot". Not now just for live quarry shooting but for clay pigeon shooting as well.

So any here who are BASC members might, please, ask directly why is the New Zealand model not being proposed here? And maybe share that answer?

I suspect the reason for a lack of compromise is not totally unrelated to the numbers of shooters who are in denial about lead toxicology. Just have a quick review of the contents of this thread.
Frankly theres ample evidence that some shooters will ignore a ban for as long as they can source lead.
We can’t be trusted.
You are going to need an exemption for small bore ammunition for air rifle and rimfire competitive shooting, you’ll also need one for some of the clay disciplines because in both cases the ammunition to be used is standardised and specified by international governing bodies.

Non-toxic shot regulations

Hunters are required to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl within 200 metres of water. 2021 saw a complete ban on the use of lead shot for all but 410 gauge, and that exemption ended at the end of the 2023 game bird hunting season. This ban will be strictly enforced on public, private...

www.fishandgame.org.nz

 

[enfieldspares]

We can’t be trusted.

Alas 'tis true. I have been on formal driven shoots with my bismuth Grand Prix 1 1/8 English #5 when there have been duck and the shoot captain has advised "non-lead please" with then the added "unless you are taking it home." Our own worst enemies.

 

[Smellydog]

denial about lead toxicology.

I don't know anyone in denial of the toxicity of lead.
Lead, like many other naturally occurring elements can be converted into very toxic substances.
Shooters have enjoyed it in a relatively safe format for centuries but now it's a convenient way to beat us with and in a vein attempt some of us think compromise will appease.
Sincere good luck with that one.
What I do know is that the toxicity of lead from firearms pales into insignificance compared to agricultural chemicals and plastic pollution.
I think more are in denial of just those two things out of a huge list of other stuff.

Lead is a natural element. Made when the earth was.
Plastic is man made and he is thick.
Agrichem is man made and he is thick.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Unfortunately, the most recent occasion they did this they proposed the ‘voluntary’ transition away from lead ammunition.

Funny how ‘voluntary’ proposals have a habit of becoming mandatory. If only BASC et al had foreseen this and not been so quick to volunteer us (sell us down the river ).

The voluntary transition is about encouraging people to move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. It's your choice. There is nothing mandatory about it. There has been no change in law.

 

[ashray]

as i stated clearly before, basc started all this and continue to try to say they did not, THEY DID. never to be trusted by me again

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Lead, like many other naturally occurring elements can be converted into very toxic substances.

Indeed, and the problem with lead is when lead is distributed into small grit sized pellets and available in the ground for birds of various species to mistake as grit and eat, then that lead shot gets eroded in the gizzard and is metabolised into toxic lead salts that are absorbed into blood and later deposited in the kidneys, liver, bones etc. with resulting ill effects. Whether the impact of this on individual birds or their population justifies restrictions relative to other toxic substances impacting those same birds or populations is where the debate lies now - and the days of denying the science as a defence strategy are long over as regards lead shot for live quarry shooting.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

as i stated clearly before, basc started all this and continue to try to say they did not, THEY DID. never to be trusted by me again

What did BASC start and when did they start it?

 

[Smellydog]

Indeed, and the problem with lead is when lead is distributed into small grit sized pellets and available in the ground for birds of various species to mistake as grit and eat, then that lead shot gets eroded in the gizzard and is metabolised into toxic lead salts that are absorbed into blood and later deposited in the kidneys, liver, bones etc. with resulting ill effects. Whether the impact of this on individual birds or their population justifies restrictions relative to other toxic substances impacting those same birds or populations is where the debate lies now - and the days of denying the science as a defence strategy are long over as regards lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Disproportionate nationwide compared to other pollutants.
If there are localised concentration of lead shot like say on a large commercial shoot then I'd say it's the commerce that's the real issue.

On my grounds I have wild stock that breads every year by themselves despite any lead left by me. Pretty much how gamekeeping was done 50 plus years ago....despite the lead shot.

We will never agree on this mucker, you have a vested interest in protecting the big shoots. I don't!

 

[Nickb]

We will never agree on this mucker, you have a vested interest in protecting the big shoots. I don't!

hit the nail on the head Smelly , they dont care about the average guy carrying out pest control.

 

[palmer_mike]

The voluntary transition is about encouraging people to move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. It's your choice. There is nothing mandatory about it. There has been no change in law.

Funny how ‘voluntary’ proposals have a habit of becoming mandatory. If only BASC et al had foreseen this and not been so quick to volunteer us (sell us down the river ).

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Disproportionate nationwide compared to other pollutants.
If there are localised concentration of lead shot like say on a large commercial shoot then I'd say it's the commerce that's the real issue.

On my grounds I have wild stock that breads every year by themselves despite any lead left by me. Pretty much how gamekeeping was done 50 plus years ago....despite the lead shot.

We will never agree on this mucker, you have a vested interest in protecting the big shoots. I don't!

I agree with you - less density of lead shot on a piece of ground reduces the risk of birds picking up lead shot as grit and the availability of natural grit is another aspect to factor in. We could also perhaps agree that if any of your wild stock is unfortunate enough to eat any of your lead shot as grit they will suffer some sub-lethal or lethal toxic effects? Where we would disagree is your assertions around BASC and 'big' or 'commercial' shoots as an influence on decision making around policy on lead ammunition - it's simply not the case - at least in the 21 years I have worked for BASC.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Funny how ‘voluntary’ proposals have a habit of becoming mandatory. If only BASC et al had foreseen this and not been so quick to volunteer us (sell us down the river ).

The voluntary transition is about encouraging people to move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. It's your choice. There is nothing mandatory about it. There has been no change in law.

 

[Morkai]

Indeed, and the problem with lead is when lead is distributed into small grit sized pellets and available in the ground for birds of various species to mistake as grit and eat, then that lead shot gets eroded in the gizzard and is metabolised into toxic lead salts that are absorbed into blood and later deposited in the kidneys, liver, bones etc. with resulting ill effects.

Evening Connor,

This seems to be an issue raised over shotgun concerns, why is rifle ammunition being lumped in with the consultation?

Most of the time a rifle shot equals a kill, even with a pass through or the odd miss the contamination to the ground must be absolutely miniscule.

The amount of rifle shots in the countryside must be nothing compared to shotgun shooting.

The proposals also allow for .22 rimfire in lead for shooting rabbits etc, so it seems pretty pointless to ban larger lead ammunition that is most of the time, a one shot, one kill thing that doesnt contain single use plastics.

 

[finnbear270]

Funny how the Swans used to nest every year along the canal wharf at the "Deader" in Chester.
Chester shot tower & Leadworks was the source of most of the lead fired by the navy in Nelson's day, & also most everything chucked around in Crimea.

 

[palmer_mike]

The voluntary transition is about encouraging people to move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. It's your choice. There is nothing mandatory about it. There has been no change in law.

You should go into politics.

 

[Morkai]

For one 28g lead shotgun shell, I could fire 3 of my lead rifle bullets (not discounting the copper jacket weight).

Not often do I go out and shoot more than 3 rounds. This is not the case on driven game and clay shoots.

This is why I'm wondering why rifle ammunition is lumped into the consultation. Rifles are being disproportionately penalised under this proposal.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Funny how the Swans used to nest every year along the canal wharf at the "Deader" in Chester.
Chester shot tower & Leadworks was the source of most of the lead fired by the navy in Nelson's day, & also most everything chucked around in Crimea.

Indeed. Lots of good sites for mute swans to nest along the canal and river Dee in Chester. There is a sign at the Groves explaining the impact of lead shot used for fishing on the swan population. If you believe that swans do not suffer lead poisoning from eating lead shot as grit then the following may be of interest:

Lead Poisoning in Swans - The Swan Sanctuary

Numbers of swans treated for lead poisoning Currently out of a yearly throughput of 3000 Mute swans we treat about 6 per month (around 72 per year) for

www.theswansanctuary.org.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Evening Connor,

This seems to be an issue raised over shotgun concerns, why is rifle ammunition being lumped in with the consultation?

Most of the time a rifle shot equals a kill, even with a pass through or the odd miss the contamination to the ground must be absolutely miniscule.

The amount of rifle shots in the countryside must be nothing compared to shotgun shooting.

The proposals also allow for .22 rimfire in lead for shooting rabbits etc, so it seems pretty pointless to ban larger lead ammunition that is most of the time, a one shot, one kill thing that doesnt contain single use plastics.

The HSE lead ammunition review that started in 2021 considered the outdoor recreational use of all lead ammunition. In summary, the reason for the review was lead ammunition being caught up with other hazardous substances at that time under post-Brexit regulations called UK REACH to ensure continued trade between UK and EU on chemicals. The first HSE consultation started off mirroring the same lead ammunition restriction proposals that were being made in the EU which covered a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets, lead shot and lead rifle ammunition.

Since the review started in 2021 BASC has argued against all the proposals for various reasons during a call for evidence and two consultations. The final HSE consultation was in December 2023 and BASC stated the following on rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting:

The HSE has proposed no restriction “at this time” on the placing on the market or use of lead bullets for live quarry shooting. The HSE has been unable to sufficiently quantify the benefits of restricting this use and has not been able to explicitly demonstrate the proportionality of a restriction. Therefore, no restriction should be made or proposed.

The detailed arguments are here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

The outcome is outlined here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.

basc.org.uk

 

[Morkai]

The HSE lead ammunition review that started in 2021 considered the outdoor recreational use of all lead ammunition. In summary, the reason for the review was lead ammunition being caught up with other hazardous substances at that time under post-Brexit regulations called UK REACH to ensure continued trade between UK and EU on chemicals. The first HSE consultation started off mirroring the same lead ammunition restriction proposals that were being made in the EU which covered a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets, lead shot and lead rifle ammunition.

Since the review started in 2021 BASC has argued against all the proposals for various reasons during a call for evidence and two consultations. The final HSE consultation was in December 2023 and BASC stated the following on rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting:

The HSE has proposed no restriction “at this time” on the placing on the market or use of lead bullets for live quarry shooting. The HSE has been unable to sufficiently quantify the benefits of restricting this use and has not been able to explicitly demonstrate the proportionality of a restriction. Therefore, no restriction should be made or proposed.

The detailed arguments are here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

The outcome is outlined here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.

basc.org.uk

Thank you for the link and the statement.

 

[jall55]

Alas 'tis true. I have been on formal driven shoots with my bismuth Grand Prix 1 1/8 English #5 when there have been duck and the shoot captain has advised "non-lead please" with then the added "unless you are taking it home." Our own worst enemies.

But what did you do ?