A friends FAC refusal

[bamm88]

Hi all

A good friend of mine recently applied for his FAC with Durham Constabulary. He already has a SGC that he's held for the last 8 years and recently has been asked to carry out fox and vermin control.

Naturally he's applied to Durham Constabulary to gain firearms for this purpose, worded in a manner correctly fitting for the purpose intended. He has a clean back ground both health and criminal, and has been rejected on the basis of lack of experience. I do understand that the forces have a duty of suitability in terms of capabilities of a person, but usually this would be reflected in the granting of smaller calibres like a 22LR whilst experience is gained instead of a flat out refusal.

Calibres applied for were 22LR 223rem 17HMR and 6.5x55 for competition use.

I have heard of this before but never experienced it myself with Cumbria back when I first applied some 13 years ago.

I'm just wondering if this is now the general consensus between most forces now.

regards
C.

 

[andyk]

Have they said what sort of experience they want?

There’s nothing in the guidance to require this but it seems a lot of FLDs are taking it upon themselves to tighten the rules in this fashion.

You mention he applied for a 6.5 for competition. Is he a full member of a club at which such a rifle can be used? If he is, then a refusal seems hard to substantiate, at least for that rifle.

 

[TringSaint]

What was the reason for refusal?
I know that many forces are still using the mentoring / 3rd party validation of new applicants as a way of approving /refusing, so is that the case here?

The best way around it is to join a club, shoot there and prove yourself to be competent and safe and then apply for target and vermin and get the mentoring bit in place and all things being equal, they should get their license.

 

[finbar]

Could be on land check am with Durham for last 5 years had no issues with them Northumbria before that again no issues

 

[TonyC]

Could the recent MOD/ Landmark ruling on banning use of 6.5mm for targets on their ranges be involved somehow?

 

[gixer1]

Ask him to get in touch with his shooting org, if he has shown reason for acquiring, and has previous experience with a shotgun and can demonstrate to the FEO he has a sensible outlook - there should be no grounds for refusal.

The competition requirement for the 6.5 would be the only one if he is not a member of a club etc and can’t demonstrate attendance or right to use/access range.

 

[Apthorpe]

Lack of experience is a ridiculous reason for refusal creating a Catch-22 situation. He can't acquire experience without being permitted to possess the necessary tools. Also, I think it's correct to say that there is no legal justification to require experience.

 

[Donkey Basher]

Tell your friend to contact his shooting organisation & ask them to get involved.

From your original post it seems that there may be more to the matter as you mention pest control but also competition shooting.

Your friend will get much better advice & support from people in his shooting organisation who deal with firearms law & firearms licencing dept on a regular basis than he will from responses you get on this forum. They will also be able to advise him on how to approach the matter now he has to answer yes in the future to the question has he ever had a firearms certificate revoked or refused.

No offence to anyone on here, to you or your friend, but his circumstances will be specific & he needs help from someone who deals with these issues as their job.

Hope he gets it sorted

 

[MAH]

think it's correct to say that there is no legal justification to require experience

@bamm88
1..I tend to agree with Apthorp in principle above
However, if you pal was interviewed by the FLO as part of the application, it is possible that his answers to some of the questions ( e.g. back stop, risk of ricochet etc) have left the FLO with some concerns.
Of course I'm speculating.
But if that was the case, then it would make more sense.

Maybe have a chat with your pal to see if it sounds plausible. And feedback.

2. What caught my eye in your post was competition shooting.
Is your pal a member of a club.
If no, then that also makes refusal a likely outcome.

M

 

[M@tt]

If he wants firearms for competition use then he needs to be a full member of a club before he can apply, must have done their probationary course, and had at least 3 months of experience with the club to get that far.
I'm guessing he's not a member of a HO Club so this is where the lack of experience comes in.

Just for pest control, find someone who'll mentor or take him along for a few sessions and job done.

 

[Foxyboy43]

If he wants firearms for competition use then he needs to be a full member of a club before he can apply, must have done their probationary course, and had at least 3 months of experience with the club to get that far.
I'm guessing he's not a member of a HO Club so this is where the lack of experience comes in.

Just for pest control, find someone who'll mentor or take him along for a few sessions and job done.

Yep - both my clubs require 12 months membership and 12 attendances before they will support an application.

 

[TringSaint]

Lack of experience is a ridiculous reason for refusal creating a Catch-22 situation. He can't acquire experience without being permitted to possess the necessary tools. Also, I think it's correct to say that there is no legal justification to require experience.

No, but in speaking with my FEO previously, they are being told to look for any reason not to grant. So not having experience in a club first off will count as a negative.

Daft, I agree, but it’s their interpretation and their gift to grant.

I also was told that if anyone omits any past conviction or charge from their application or renewal then the rule is to immediately refuse.

Historically a friendly FEO might say quietly in your ear that something is missing and you can then write in with an addendum, but not now.

 

[wabbit warren]

Hi All
I can only talk through my experience in gaining my Fac with Essex
I've held a sgc since the age of 17 (yes the small white bit of paper with not a lot on it)
applied for a Fac roughly 10 years ago and got granted a 17hmr which is all i wanted at the time
after 6 months i put in for a variation for a .223 rem I explained I wanted it for fox control on my permission because I wasn't happy shooting them with a .17hmr and got told by my Fao it was a good call (granted straight away)
I had no talk of a mentor or anything like that
but when the Fao came round for my initial interview for the Fac he saw i had a framed certificate from RIFLECRAFT. LTD for a rifle training course i did back in 2003 on my study wall
the Foa wrote down this down in his notes and explained that although it was a long time ago the company that run it do a lot of work with the police and all the instructors are Hm forces and NRA qualified and the course is police approved
thus making my journey into Fac a smooth and easy one
sorry a bit waffly i know but, little things like that can make a big difference
I wasnt even looking at getting a Fac when I did the course but things change

 

[Rake Aboot]

Lack of experience is no reason for refusal
Appeal it straight away .

Utter pish

 

[purdeydog]

If you have no experience with a rifle then you should not be given one. A .22 is no less deadly. Dead is dead.

 

[co’den]

Is it a refusal on all calibres or partial refusal?

Prior to applying for my FAC I spoke to my FEO. It was very apparent that I wasn’t going to get approval for everything I wanted up front. His words were, ‘you don’t want a partial refusal’, meaning, I wouldn’t get an FAC if one of the guns or calibres was refused.
Might be worth having a chat with the FEO with a view to re applying for one or two calibres only now and applying for variations later.

 

[VSS]

If you have no experience with a rifle then you should not be given one. A .22 is no less deadly. Dead is dead.

I had never fired a rifle before when my FAC was granted. Everyone has to start somewhere. Like the OP's friend, I did have many years of experience with a shotgun, but whether that's considered relevant I don't know.
Lack of experience in itself is no reason for refusal.
I can't help wondering if perhaps OP's friend was a total dickhead during his interview?

(eg, in response to a question from the FEO regarding home security, you don't reply "if anyone tries to break in I'll just shoot the feckers", no matter how tongue in cheek and humorous you think you're being).

Either that or maybe showed absolutely zero knowledge of some really basic stuff like backstops.

 

[Dazb1967]

If you have no experience with a rifle then you should not be given one. A .22 is no less deadly. Dead is dead.

Why, Were not all lucky enough to be brought up around rifles, No one is born with a rifle in their hand and everyone has to learn

 

[purdeydog]

Why, Were not all lucky enough to be brought up around rifles, No one is born with a rifle in their hand and everyone has to learn

The why is safety of course. You next points are irrelevant to the safety argument.

 

[Rake Aboot]

If you have no experience with a rifle then you should not be given one. A .22 is no less deadly. Dead is dead.

Utter garbage

The why is safety of course. You next points are irrelevant to the safety argument.

The usual fall back non argument
Alas , also utter garbage


Sounds like an advert for paid training courses