Would purdeydog care to make us aware of the training that he was given before he was granted?
A friends FAC refusal
- Thread starter bamm88
- Start date
you say that but Kent are forcing people to do a shotgun safety, experience event before granting a SGC if they previously have no experience.
Problem is back to the firearms act giving the Chief Constable unbounded scope on, fit and proper person to own guns.
purdeydog
Well-Known Member
Mr Finnbear. The one person on this site I’d like to meet. You’d start an argument in a room by yourself lol.
I wasn’t given any training. I went out and got some experience. Made friends, put some work in and got offered opportunities. I appreciate that isn’t easy for everyone. It’s hard to make and meet new people if you don’t know any shooters etc.
This last five years I’ve probably taken 5 people out under my wing to get them some basic experience and skills. They have all been granted FAC no issues. That’s my small contribution to getting people into field sports.
There are already paid training courses. I’m not advocating enforced qualifications before grant. Just some safety awareness.
If you think safety is utter garage I’d say you’ve been lucky enough not to witness any accidents or just inexperienced maybe.
You think safety is utter garage? Or have I misunderstood you?
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
SGC is an entitlement in the UK
No reason for wanting one is required and refusal to grant is only available to the police if they can provide good reason for it.
Lack of training is certainly not a good reason.
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
You’ve misunderstood
You’re statement that experience or training is required before being allowed a rifle , that’s what’s garbage.
Safety is not utter garbage and must be taken very seriously, In the OP he states his friend holds a SGC so Im sure he will be well aware of how dangerous guns can be.
Your quite entitled to an opinion but I'm pleased that's all it is and I hope it all turns out well for the OP's friend, Please keep us updated if he appeals
Times have changed. They want full club membership and a DSC 1 to be happy nowadays. Even a 60 year old career gamekeeper on the Estate where I am had to join a club to renew. This is Midlothian, which has a lot of rural territory so a lot of guns and you would have thought would be easy going. They seem to be relying on club membership to pick out people who are going off the rails.
My first FAC application was refused: the FEO's interviewers went off to my neighbour a mile away, and asked if they gave me permission to shoot on my land! Being city folk, they did not. The FEO team also did not accept any overseas experience no matter how well documented (I had receipts for paying for over $10,000 of ammo since 1992 amongst lots of other things), nor any military experience (again lots of evidence was offered), said shotguns and airguns in UK are not experience for FAC, therefore in law, I had zero experience for rifles, which gave my friends who shot with me a lot overseas a laugh. The FEO interview team had genuinely zero firearms experience: they said they did not shoot or hunt and did not have guns. Fortunately, a friend gave me some advice, "Alex times have changed, they need paperwork nowadays so just apply for the right paper and you will be fine". So I did.
I contacted the UK NRA, and they kindly converted my overseas stuff to NRA certs just by doing the one day exams, and I got a DSC 2 straight away, which was great fun (and 4 deer for my freezer in the process - managed to get an extra one as the examiner did not see it before I shot it). DSC examiner was interesting: very experienced guy, said "How on earth can you do DSC2 without a UK FAC, never heard of that before?", so he demanded a target shoot with him before we start and fortunately his old battered Ruger was good enough to do a tight clover leaf at 100yds, so off we went. He cottoned onto the fact I gralloch hanging up if at all possible, so made me do it flat every time and I learnt a new trick or two from him. I joined some target clubs and met more nice people.
Applied for the FAC again a year later, citing the above unhappiness with the first team, and an experienced FEO came along, who loved the military evidence and videos, apologised that they were not allowed to accept overseas certs as primary evidence but said he took it into account as setting the context, said the NRA RCO card was great, DSC was perfect and made his job much easier. Lamented that it was nowadays a requirement to have the right paperwork. He rang up the DSC examiner, references etc, and apparently lots of other checks - he said the checks took him 2 days. He approved everything I asked for: a long list of full bore (6.5, .270, several .286s, 7mm, 7.5mm), a .17 HMR, a Section 1 shotgun, happy with my gunsmithing, all unrestricted (any land, ALQ, any target or comp). With the FAC issued, I finally completed the repatriation of my hobbies from overseas back to the UK, and have been enjoying it ever since. Even my wife is happy, as she loves cooking with Sika, Roe, and rabbit.
So bottom line is I recommend the new applicant joins a club, and gets at least a DSC 1, then apply again.
When my daughter applied for a shotgun, the same FEO asked for evidence she is a safe shooter, and rang up an instructor at the clay grounds she goes to. So evidence of safety applies for shotguns too, just not as strictly as for FACs.
BTW, every time you ask for a variation they ring up the shooting club you are in, to check, even if the variation is for hunting only. So remember to attend the range at least 3 times a year with each of your toys.
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purdeydog
Well-Known Member
Oh you’re right there. Don’t believe it’s a requirement in law. However I’m very glad the police seem to be wanting new applications to have some, which seems a no brainer to me.
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
I am all for robust discussion, especially when it is around "Make it up as you see fit" constabularies.
May not be from are perspective, but it is from the Chief Constables. Guess it will need a court case to decide.
However very unlikely to happen as the applicant will just comply and attend a clay ground to complete the course to ensure the SGC is granted.
Difficult to argue against someone having experience before being granted a FAC after all would we be happy if they gave an MP5 machine gun to an inexperienced Police officer to walk round an airport?
Honestly iv said before iv seen some very dangerous shotgun shooters they start later in life and get greedy shooting stuff they shouldn't
Electric Ian
Active Member
Or yours was
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
It’s exactly the same with planning departments. They have national guidelines and frameworks that they should work to, but each application is assessed individually and its merits are determined by the case officer, subjectively!
We recently submitted a planning application, had it rejected by the council on grounds of sustainability, sought an appeal and the inspectorate tore into the council for rejecting it as it met all of the national criteria. Result = approved application and a costs award!
Shame we don’t have the same model for firearms licensing, although everything would end up in an appeal (which is exactly what is happening in the planning world today!)
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
Sorry , no idea what you mean , can you explain ?
In Bedfordshire having held SGC for 6 years when I applied for FAC they would only give me Rimfire on first application 17HMR and 22LR plus FAC air rifle. Waited 18 months then applied for CF. The frustrating thing is that none of this is documented in the regulations and there is huge variation across the county’s
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