Copper and internal deflections

[75]

Please, please, please - this is not a slag-off-copper-thread. But I am curious on anyone's objective experience of internal deflections with copper.

I've had a few shots of late that I've struggled to explain - exclusively with 130gn TTSX in 308. It's a new rifle and I settled on that bullet as I've heard good reports of the 130gn in 308 and I like them in 120gn in my 6.5-284.

In summary, I've had more deflections off ribs / bone in 2 weeks than I ever recall in many years of stalking!

It's gone a bit silly with stomachs burst in 4 deer in the last couple of weeks - we're talking reds here not munties so they are big old lumps with some margin for error. I've also started using an Alpex which auto-records shots, so for the first time ever I've been able to look back at shot placement and, more importantly, angle of the deer. Almost certainly, I would previously have put anything like this down to user error and a crap shot on my part (e.g. the deer was quartering more than I thought) but now I can look back in detail. On each of the recent occasions I've been so annoyed with myself that I've taken a very critical look to see what I did wrong.

Here is an example...

The shot - about as close to broadside as you can get. Screenshot is at moment I pulled trigger (note - there are 3 deer in the shot, the spiker has his head down feeding):



I know folk are going to draw red triangles on the image above and tell me where they would have put the bullet but that's not the point of the thread (if we can possibly avoid going down that route ).

When skinned, here's the entry - as expected - tucked under the armpit:



And broadside shot so you'd expect exit about the same spot on the other side... Right?!



This is an 80kg spiker not an 8kg muntie so that is quite a deflection. Probably 8" or so, which is not far off 45 degrees.

It's not something I've ever had an issue with. Maybe if I think back many years I can recall a muntie that I low neck shot and exited out the haunch (lead bullet) or fallow shot through the shoulder on my DSC2 where the bullet deflected and the deer needed a follow up (lead again). But I'm struggling to think of any other examples over many deer shot. So 4 deer in a fortnight makes me very uneasy!

I am certainly being much more forward with placement with this rifle / bullet combo and definitely avoiding anything that looks like it's quartering-on. In that example above, I'd now pull that same shot forward a good few inches and take out shoulders. Maybe it's just bad luck but it has certainly got me doubting things.

I'd welcome any real world experiences (ideally telling me what a great bullet 130gn TTSX is and how I've jut been very unlucky )

 

[Dave_45]

I’ve heard of the fragmenting non lead bullets doing the same to rumens too, even when well placed.

I’ve also heard of solid copper bullets doing some weird things in regards to deflections within the beast too.

most people that shoot copper that I know , put them further forward and “pin” the deer.


I don’t know if this will help you at all but it has happened before.

Most contractors up here use the Sako blades in whatever calibre they have , usually 270-308

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Do you think that maybe it’s quartering more than it looks? The angle of the back legs is the same in the picture (ie it isn’t taking a step forward with one leg, they look to be in the same position) yet you can clearly see both back legs indicating that it’s quartering to you? Do you think that it’s possible that instead of deflections that you are struggling with depth perception on the flatter image of the alpex compared to the scope you are used to?

 

[Apthorpe]

if it is quartering, then the shot deflected by even more than if it was broadside.

 

[75]

Do you think that maybe it’s quartering more than it looks? The angle of the back legs is the same in the picture (ie it isn’t taking a step forward with one leg, they look to be in the same position) yet you can clearly see both back legs indicating that it’s quartering to you? Do you think that it’s possible that instead of deflections that you are struggling with depth perception on the flatter image of the alpex compared to the scope you are used to?

Yes indeed. This was my first assumption and I have posted my thoughts about Alpex being a "flatter" image than glass elsewhere in the forum. In this instance, I'm struggling to see how it was quartering so much as to cause a point of exit so far back.

But all 4 incidents were within 100 yards of each other in the same heavy woodland and I do wonder if the foreground distractions are emphasising the issue. Open, longer shots have all been fine.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

if it is quartering, then the shot deflected by even more than if it was broadside.

I would look at the images again, I was saying that its quartering too with the head towards the shooter, leading to bullet being in the right place on the right side of carcass and far back on the left

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Yes indeed. This was my first assumption and I have posted my thoughts about Alpex being a "flatter" image than glass elsewhere in the forum. In this instance, I'm struggling to see how it was quartering so much as to cause a point of exit so far back.

But all 4 incidents were within 100 yards of each other in the same heavy woodland and I do wonder if the foreground distractions are emphasising the issue. Open, longer shots have all been fine.

You could very well be right, I agree it doesn’t look to be quartering much!

 

[VSS]

Bullets can do strange things sometimes, regardless of what material they're made of.

 

[Rutland lad]

A few of us have been through this agony recently. Some of us using Pulsar C50, others using Alpex.
I have changed nothing in my set up regarding ammo or shot placement - but there has been some inexplicable results.
A clean miss at just over 100m, a shot high, a shot low. On occasion I’ve walked up to the deer and thought ‘that’s not where I aimed’
This caused lots of check zero - no change, so what’s going on.

My view (personal of course) is that because it’s a screen with an almost ‘red dot’ reticle on my C50 I’ve not ‘settled’ properly behind the rifle and given myself the best view of the screen. Coupled with the fact that it’s an ‘image’ and not like a glass scope I have been drawn into taking shots which on reflection weren’t the best, with the deer quartering more than I had at first thought.
I’ve just been today to check zero with a close stalking friend who had convinced himself that his C50 had lost zero after an animal was hit in an area he was convinced he hadn’t aimed at. Today’s result shows the C50 hadn’t lost zero. It was accurate.
Painful to admit, but it was the human factor which was at fault.

In summary, I’m now convinced that the new tech will take us (me) some time to get completely comfortable with, and the ‘inexplicable’ results we’ve seen are down to us. I’m now at ease with this fact and shoot accordingly - no last light shots (which I revelled in when I first got the digiscope), making sure that the deer is in a good position to shoot etc.

Time will tell if I’m right.

 

[75]

A few of us have been through this agony recently. Some of us using Pulsar C50, others using Alpex.
I have changed nothing in my set up regarding ammo or shot placement - but there has been some inexplicable results.
A clean miss at just over 100m, a shot high, a shot low. On occasion I’ve walked up to the deer and thought ‘that’s not where I aimed’
This caused lots of check zero - no change, so what’s going on.

This sounds familiar. I was convinced zero was off initially (not from the shot above but a previous poor placement). I have checked zero twice now just to be sure and spot on.

Interesting thoughts - thank you. Keep them coming!

 

[FISH BOY]

Just considering the external optics, have to say I would be pleased with a carcass in that condition using copper.

Using the same aim point and 120gr Sako Blades, I’ve found that the blood pooling and damage on both sides is considerably more - almost as if they are ballistic tipped at times.

 

[Heym SR20]

Imagine a horizontal drum on a spindle. Shoot it a little above or below the centre line, as the bullet hits the drum it will start to spin, and the other side of drum will move relative to where the bullet hits. As the bullet moves through the inside of the empty drum, or even if is filled with water, it will have no effect on the motion of the drum so it will continue to spin. When it hits the far side the bullet will hit higher or lower than expected.

Now stand the same drum on four poles that will collapse as soon as the bullet hits, that drum could spin all over the place when its hit.

A bullet will tend keep its momentum and continue in a straight line, provided it hits square. Anything can happen on a glancing ricochet type blow.

The bullet in a straight line through the spinning tumbling drum - but it probably won’t come out in the opposite side as when you shot it, as the opposite side will have moved whilst the bullet was inside the drum.

Going back to the OP, from the image shown there is also a little matter of trying to thread a bullet through a load of brush. I would also question whether a digital image is good enough to show up fine twigs, grass etc.

An interesting little video testing what happens when you shoot grass, leaves etc. results are pretty eye opening.

 

[farrieral]

The last Roe doe i shot with the .308 130 TTSX was stood fully broadside, not quartering on or away at all.

220 yards and the bullet entered the nearside shoulder, and exited the gut on the far side, just in front of the hind leg!

A fair deflection that perplexed myself and my stalking buddy!

First deflection of this kind with said bullet after a good number of deer... as said above, sometimes bullets do strange things after impact

 

[Utectok]

Put simply your point of aim is to far back id never shoot a deer behind the shoulder with copper. Aim hilar and the problems will disappear.

 

[Smellydog]

Looks like something shot with fmj ball. That does weird stuff terminally as well....

 

[Heym SR20]

The shot - about as close to broadside as you can get. Screenshot is at moment I pulled trigger (note - there are 3 deer in the shot, the spiker has his head down feeding):

View attachment 408056

Looking at the image from down your scope at the time of shot, I would suggest bullet deflection is the least of your worries.

1) where is the safe backdrop?. It looks like there is scrub covered slopping ground behind, but there is no ways you can be certain of what is behind the deer. There could easily be another deer, the prizewinning highland bull belonging to the farmer or a courting couple.

You are questioning where bullet goes afterwards- they can go anywhere as you have found.

2) there is far too much scrub etc in front of the animal. Are you sure you can absolutely see all the twigs, bits of grass etc that are between you and the target. I have no clue about your optics, but my experience of digital optics is that they have a pretty narrow depth of view - the object is in focus but foreground and background is blurry. There is also latency, processing lag in the image.

3) shot placement is too far back.

I appreciate that in real life things look different than through a scope but once you have squeezed the trigger there is no control over the bullet.

 

[VSS]

Looking at the image from down your scope at the time of shot, I would suggest bullet deflection is the least of your worries.

1) where is the safe backdrop?. It looks like there is scrub covered slopping ground behind, but there is no ways you can be certain of what is behind the deer. There could easily be another deer, the prizewinning highland bull belonging to the farmer or a courting couple.

You are questioning where bullet goes afterwards- they can go anywhere as you have found.

Only the OP knows the ground. I don't think we can judge backstop from that photo.

2) there is far too much scrub etc in front of the animal. Are you sure you can absolutely see all the twigs, bits of grass etc that are between you and the target.

No, really there's not. You don't need to be able to see the whole deer. Just the bit you want to put your bullet into.

3) shot placement is too far back.

Agreed.
And I suspect the deer may have been turning as the shot was fired. But that's just a guess.

 

[Heym SR20]

Only the OP knows the ground. I don't think we can judge backstop from that photo.

No, really there's not. You don't need to be able to see the whole deer. Just the bit you want to put your bullet into.

Agreed.
And I suspect the deer may have been turning as the shot was fired. But that's just a guess.

I think we would have to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t have taken that shot. Far too many things to go wrong.

 

[Freeforester]

Head down shot deer often result in a burst rumen; the act of raising its neck shifts the rumen relative to the diaphragm. You probably know this.

I’d be increasing the dog’s ration, it looks like he’s had the atlas joint when you were putting the skin in a bag or washing the hair off the knife..

 

[farrieral]

Also if he's head down grazing and the off fore (shot side limb) is back, the positioning of the deers anatomy can be easily misjudged as the deer is "bunched up".

I'd be happy to take the shot, my point of aim would of been 6" further forward is all... lessons to be learned from every shot ehy