Copper and internal deflections

[Edinburgh Rifles]

I do not subsscibe to the softer bullet maintaining a straighter path, if anything that goes completely against the design principles of DG solids and specifically Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilised bullets
I have found that some higher BC Copper and lead with small meplat and long profile ogive are more prone to deflection on ribs

 

[75]

Bit of a thread resurrection!

I know I said I'd step away from this one but saw it pop up again so thought a quick update. In reference to that spiker at the top of the thread, my conclusion was:

1. A deflection - might have only been slight but I am still convinced this was a significant contributing factor as the bullet exited 8" further back than entry.

I might have got away with it but for other factors which likely impacted:

2. Head down, rumen forward.
3. Shot placement too far back.
4. Full belly from a night of feeding hard out on pasture.
5. Flat image in Alpex makes it hard to be sure of exact angle of beast.

There were some very helpful posts on here a while back from the Peter Green best practice event which highlighted how marginal the traditional DSC shot placement is - back of the heart is up against the diaphragm and rumen, and the diaphragm comes a long way forward from the point we traditionally trim it around the inside of the ribs.

I've probably shot another 40 or so reds with the same bullet / rifle / scope combo since I posted this thread (I know I said I was going to try a heavier bullet but I had 100 of the 130gn loaded up so thought I'd persevere!) and not a single issue since.

BUT I am now really cautious about the flat image of the Alpex and have pulled my POA well forward into the shoulder.

 

[Triumph_Dave]

I have been using the Barnes TTSX for the last five years, using the 130gr in a .308 at 2850 fps and a 30.06 at 2920 fps, also 110 gr in the .270 at 3000 fps. 99% have been bang /flop or flop within 25 metres on Red, Fallow and Roe all heart/neck shot with no noticeably high deflections with entry/exit broadly inline. However at the end of last year I shot a fallow side on with its head up at 160m where the 130gr entered directly inline with the heart, the bullet deflected almost 90 deg downward on impact and exited through the sternum making quite an exit mess and missing the heart, had to follow up with a neck shot. This year shot a Roe doe at 130 metres with the .270 with the 110 gr, slightly quatering shot, the bullet impact area was bang on, but it exited much further back than expected and high just missing the rumen but cut through the esophagus.. The .270 has an Alpex so reviewed the shot and it all looked good.
I guess its just a numbers game.. sooner or later its going to happen..

 

[Smellydog]

Bit of a thread resurrection!

I know I said I'd step away from this one but saw it pop up again so thought a quick update. In reference to that spiker at the top of the thread, my conclusion was:

1. A deflection - might have only been slight but I am still convinced this was a significant contributing factor as the bullet exited 8" further back than entry.

I might have got away with it but for other factors which likely impacted:

2. Head down, rumen forward.
3. Shot placement too far back.
4. Full belly from a night of feeding hard out on pasture.
5. Flat image in Alpex makes it hard to be sure of exact angle of beast.

There were some very helpful posts on here a while back from the Peter Green best practice event which highlighted how marginal the traditional DSC shot placement is - back of the heart is up against the diaphragm and rumen, and the diaphragm comes a long way forward from the point we traditionally trim it around the inside of the ribs.

I've probably shot another 40 or so reds with the same bullet / rifle / scope combo since I posted this thread (I know I said I was going to try a heavier bullet but I had 100 of the 130gn loaded up so thought I'd persevere!) and not a single issue since.

BUT I am now really cautious about the flat image of the Alpex and have pulled my POA well forward into the shoulder.

Thanks for that.

 

[Mike1979]

Bit of a thread resurrection!

I know I said I'd step away from this one but saw it pop up again so thought a quick update. In reference to that spiker at the top of the thread, my conclusion was:

1. A deflection - might have only been slight but I am still convinced this was a significant contributing factor as the bullet exited 8" further back than entry.

I might have got away with it but for other factors which likely impacted:

2. Head down, rumen forward.
3. Shot placement too far back.
4. Full belly from a night of feeding hard out on pasture.
5. Flat image in Alpex makes it hard to be sure of exact angle of beast.

There were some very helpful posts on here a while back from the Peter Green best practice event which highlighted how marginal the traditional DSC shot placement is - back of the heart is up against the diaphragm and rumen, and the diaphragm comes a long way forward from the point we traditionally trim it around the inside of the ribs.

I've probably shot another 40 or so reds with the same bullet / rifle / scope combo since I posted this thread (I know I said I was going to try a heavier bullet but I had 100 of the 130gn loaded up so thought I'd persevere!) and not a single issue since.

BUT I am now really cautious about the flat image of the Alpex and have pulled my POA well forward into the shoulder.

Interesting update Thanks for sharing...I must confess I still have to try and remind myself to pull the POA forward...still not instinctive but sure that will come with practice. Shot a fallow buck a couple of weeks and took the front shoulders out so dropped on the spot...then heart shot a pricket who ran 20 yards...possibly because I had time to think on the buck then into auto pilot on the pricket...

 

[75]

I still have to try and remind myself to pull the POA forward...still not instinctive but sure that will come with practice.

I'm sure there's a bit of that at play with me too.

I learnt to shoot deer a long time ago with an old keeper who hated shoulder damage as the dealer knocked money. We knocked over about a 100 deer a year between us for a good few years and he drummed into me not to touch the shoulder, so that "tucked-in-the-armpit" shot was the default placement (he much preferred head shots but that's a different issue altogether!) and I'm sure there's some instinct at play and I can drift back to that placement if I'm not conscious about POA.

That was all roe and fallow though and I don't recall any issues or burst stomachs so I do wonder if there is a slight physiological difference with reds in that their rumen is larger / pushes slightly further forward.

 

[Mike1979]

I'm sure there's a bit of that at play with me too.

I learnt to shoot deer a long time ago with an old keeper who hated shoulder damage as the dealer knocked money. We knocked over about a 100 deer a year between us for a good few years and he drummed into me not to touch the shoulder, so that "tucked-in-the-armpit" shot was the default placement (he much preferred head shots but that's a different issue altogether!) and I'm sure there's some instinct at play and I can drift back to that placement if I'm not conscious about POA.

That was all roe and fallow though and I don't recall any issues or burst stomachs so I do wonder if there is a slight physiological difference with reds in that their rumen is larger / pushes slightly further forward.

I had a deflection on a roe with the .243 and lead. Quartering away so shot just behind the leading shoulder so the bullet would have come out on the front of the shoulder the other side. Bullet came out 3/4 of the way down the body after blowing his guts to bits...not impressed.

I think you perfectly highlight the fact that we should consider deer in 3D not 2D

 

[VSS]

I think you perfectly highlight the fact that we should consider deer in 3D not 2D

Absolutely this ^^^ 100%
Imagine you're aiming at a grapefruit suspended inside a barrel, not at the barrel itself.

 

[tackb]

wouldn't get this problem with a bow and arrow......

 

[Mike1979]

Absolutely this ^^^ 100%
Imagine you're aiming at a grapefruit suspended inside a barrel, not at the barrel itself.

That grapefruit certainly is problematic at steep angles..another factor that should not be discounted

 

[Smellydog]

wouldn't get this problem with a bow and arrow......

Yes please.

 

[CookM]

I had a couple of deflections with lighter copper ,when a rib hit at an edge.
No major issues when gralloching but tend to use heavier copper now .
They lump on through.

 

[Peakeyp628a]

I mate hope you are ok; If I could I would shoot lead; however due to game dealer stipulations I move to Copper a few years ago. I shoot a 6.5 PRC and 6.5 CM with Yew Tree 114g bullets. These have been the only NLA bullets which have performed like a lead round IMO.

 

[Siggy]

100 grain 6.5x55 go all over the place!

 

[Dan Newcombe]

I did not personally respond to the survey, as a) I am not a contractor shooting large numbers of deer at night in forestry (those who do often typically shoot into double figures per night session) and b) I have no intention of changing over to using copper rounds, based on observations and discussions with professional stalkers where guests have used them. These concerns are mainly welfare based but also from a practical point of view, a deer running off with a pencilled hole in it is a different proposition to one with made with a lead core bullet designed to perform and expand in a largely predictable manner. It would appear that of the 263 respondents some 190 were used in the delivery of the final statistics.
The findings are to my mind significant, and the concerns real, anyone may have an opinion on the matter, and this is as may be, but from those at the ‘coal face’ this is what those sufficiently interested in responding to the survey felt.

As the OP suggests, there are serious questions being raised about the performance of these non lead-cored rounds, which tend to begin, and at the point of contact and just beyond seems to be where matters get to be more than a little concerning.

Most contractors are obliged to use miminim .270 calibre I think, as these agencies (including the night licence issuing authority) already recognised for several years the problems which definitely arise when using smaller calibre rounds in the particular scenario; this was the case within the. National Forest Estate even before the introduction of non-lead ammunition.

For what it’s worth, my feeling is that as long as you can clearly see the patch of target animal unobstructed and are satisfied that the animal is broadside, and personally I would have no qualms about shooting the animal pictured (- assuming the backstop safety aspect was considered to have been suitable) aside from seasonal considerations, which differ between Scotland and England/Wales.

View attachment 408161

View attachment 408160
Apologies for the shadows cast on the text, these however are, I feel less important when compared to the clouds surrounding the use of such bullets on live targets. Seems I’m not alone.

I did that survey and thought it was an absolute joke. It was worded in such a way that there was little if any opportunity to say it’s fine and copper works well for me, truly biased and I fed that back in the notes at the end.

I get that experiences differ but I can’t for the life of me understand why some people simply cannot get on with them and some people are fine.

I know guys shooting serious numbers of deer that think copper are good and aren’t in the least bit bothered, and there are others who find them inadequate in every single way. It’s a mystery to me.

Personally, I’ve shot probably 500+ red and roe plus a couple fallow with Virtus in a .260 and haven’t really noticed a difference at all. Certainly I wouldn’t say they are better than lead but I certainly also wouldn’t say lead are better than Virtus.

I’m sure there is something in it but I can’t work out the chasm between the two camps other than maybe those who are just happy and getting on with it are less vocal than those who aren’t.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Thanks for sharing. My personal view is that consideration towards animal (deer) welfare is at its all times lowest, both from the government and from many contractors and managers who are equally guilty of fulfilling contracts for money rather than to live up to their oath of managing deer properly and ethically. And this stretches from seasons, to night licensing, to forced usage of non-lead ammo, to the way land is being cleared, fenced and commercialised and shot, so heavily that populations are becoming refugees (in my view).

More regard to welfare was extended in the days when stags were hunted with hounds, than what I am perceiving of todays centralised deer management regimes.

I pray this attitude towards deer species starts to turn in the U.K., because it is distasteful and not in line with where a modern day country should be. Many Europeans and Americans I speak with firstly are jealous of our long seasons with unlimited ability to go stalking. But in deeper conversation around how deer are targeted, why they are culled, quantities, and how they are treated for meat at game dealers, etc, it becomes an entirely different view, whereby often, they have a new found appreciation for their own moderations.

Quite frankly, I wish the U.K. would adopt a mix of systems between that of Germany and USA.

Harsh words, but spoken from the heart

Would you say the same about control of foxes?
Both damage things in their own way and both are being controlled in their own way but for some reason deer are viewed differently and inspect that’s because people want to stalk, fewer want to shoot foxes

 

[Rutland lad]

Bit of a thread resurrection!

I know I said I'd step away from this one but saw it pop up again so thought a quick update. In reference to that spiker at the top of the thread, my conclusion was:

1. A deflection - might have only been slight but I am still convinced this was a significant contributing factor as the bullet exited 8" further back than entry.

I might have got away with it but for other factors which likely impacted:

2. Head down, rumen forward.
3. Shot placement too far back.
4. Full belly from a night of feeding hard out on pasture.
5. Flat image in Alpex makes it hard to be sure of exact angle of beast.

There were some very helpful posts on here a while back from the Peter Green best practice event which highlighted how marginal the traditional DSC shot placement is - back of the heart is up against the diaphragm and rumen, and the diaphragm comes a long way forward from the point we traditionally trim it around the inside of the ribs.

I've probably shot another 40 or so reds with the same bullet / rifle / scope combo since I posted this thread (I know I said I was going to try a heavier bullet but I had 100 of the 130gn loaded up so thought I'd persevere!) and not a single issue since.

BUT I am now really cautious about the flat image of the Alpex and have pulled my POA well forward into the shoulder.

Your last line is the one I’ve found to be the most problematic with any digiscope.
I’ve been unlucky on a couple of occasions when I’ve taken a quick shot through a C50 and the animal has been quartering more than I thought, but it was down cleanly so I’ve learnt.
I try to take more time now in the lead up to trigger squeeze, but sometimes that’s just not possible.
I’ve shot copper/monometal since 2010 and I’ve no issues with the right bullet travelling at the right speed.
Putting a digiscope on the rifle almost made me feel like a novice again.

 

[Scipio]

Your last line is the one I’ve found to be the most problematic with any digiscope.
I’ve been unlucky on a couple of occasions when I’ve taken a quick shot through a C50 and the animal has been quartering more than I thought, but it was down cleanly so I’ve learnt.
I try to take more time now in the lead up to trigger squeeze, but sometimes that’s just not possible.
I’ve shot copper/monometal since 2010 and I’ve no issues with the right bullet travelling at the right speed.
Putting a digiscope on the rifle almost made me feel like a novice again.

yep, i am going thermal soon, but opted against a digital ir, so will be swing mounting between night (thermal) and days (glass) scopes or iron sights instead.

 

[Bowland blades]

It looks like you have been taking a few shots in a hurry without thinking things through carefully perhaps? but it could just be bad luck , i have seen really good stalkers drop a clanger

 

[Jagged77]

I’ve not got much to add to this other than to say I occasionally get the odd misbehaving bullet / result but on the whole copper for me performs exceptionally well. Mostly Barnes 130 TTSX from .308 but also factory sako blade in 6.5cm and .30-06, yew tree 148’s from .300wm and 80.5’s from .243 - Roe, Munties, Red and Sika. Occasional runners but most drop on the spot (Sika hinds seem to be the worst!).

I also use an Alpex and my shot placement is usually forward of the shoulder.