Lead update.

[Conor O'Gorman]

My challenges to those proposals were undermined, however, by you lot failing to challenge things you ought to have challenged and instead accepting as valid things which, at best, were spurious.

Perhaps you could provide some examples?

This was made even worse by the completely delusional decision to announce a voluntary five year process to transition away from lead ammunition - a disastrous policy.

By proposing a voluntary transition and self-regulation, we have bought the shooting sector time to get ready. We are now better prepared as a sector for change. It gave us time to inform the shooting community of the changes coming and provide educational sustainable ammunition shooting days to introduce those who shoot to lead-free shotgun cartridges. It gave the ammunition manufacturers time to make significant progress and deliver a range of viable alternatives to lead. Many shoots are now lead-free, and their game is being sold in supermarkets across the UK. The transition period has enabled the shooting community to innovate and adapt.

It's somewhat tendentious that you're now pretending that a government ban following immediately on the heels of this failure of policy is actually just the HSE acting independently.

That is not logical. The HSE review in GB mirrors the ECHA review in the EU (and NI). We await Defra's response to the Dec 2024 HSE recommendations. ECHA recommendations were made some 2 years ago and the resulting draft EC regulations have recently been published (and they will be challenged)

We all know that lead exposure is harmful - especially to children. Yet the proposals don't address lead as a toxin, they address ammunition only. I'm in the middle of a planning process where government actually requires the use of lead over alternatives in areas where children, birds and domestic animals will certainly be exposed. It's not about lead.
How do you know it supports conservation? The GWCT said there was a lack of evidence of this. It might do, or it might have no conservation benefit at all. What are the "existing efforts across Europe"? Yes, the efforts of anti-shooting activists. At last, you're coming clean about this.
A PR posture, in effect. Since lead ammunition has been bumped to the top of the list ahead of far more serious issues, one might rightly be sceptical as to the credibility of shooting orgs' PR claims relating to this.
They have to, don't they? They've been shafted.

Feel free to take all that up with CA, CPSA and NGO.

 

[Pellet Pinger]

By proposing a voluntary transition and self-regulation, we have bought the shooting sector time to get ready. We are now better prepared as a sector for change. It gave us time to inform the shooting community of the changes coming and provide educational sustainable ammunition shooting days to introduce those who shoot to lead-free shotgun cartridges. It gave the ammunition manufacturers time to make significant progress and deliver a range of viable alternatives to lead. Many shoots are now lead-free, and their game is being sold in supermarkets across the UK. The transition period has enabled the shooting community to innovate and adapt.

I actually think its been a spectacular own goal, it was always going to be the case that the vast majority of peope wouldn’t make the switch until forced to. Now the (spurious) evidence is there its been weaponised by the anti shooting brigade and used against us highlighting its failure.

Farming Today - 10/03/25 - Lead shot and agricultural contractors - BBC Sounds

The phase-out of lead shot and why it doesn't seem to be happening.

www.bbc.co.uk

Shooting industry hilariously claims ‘significant progress’ made on the failed voluntary transition away from toxic lead ammunition

Further to this morning’s news that a new study by leading UK academics has shown the shooting industry’s complete failure to achieve its much-heralded five-year voluntary transition aw…

raptorpersecutionuk.org

 

[Liveonce]

By proposing a voluntary transition and self-regulation, we have bought the shooting sector time to get ready. We are now better prepared as a sector for change. It gave us time to inform the shooting community of the changes coming and provide educational sustainable ammunition shooting days to introduce those who shoot to lead-free shotgun cartridges. It gave the ammunition manufacturers time to make significant progress and deliver a range of viable alternatives to lead. Many shoots are now lead-free, and their game is being sold in supermarkets across the UK. The transition period has enabled the shooting community to innovate and adapt.

I see you have dropped the word affordable alternatives to lead which you used to also say.

 

[Liveonce]

Shooting industry hilariously claims ‘significant progress’ made on the failed voluntary transition away from toxic lead ammunition

Further to this morning’s news that a new study by leading UK academics has shown the shooting industry’s complete failure to achieve its much-heralded five-year voluntary transition aw…

raptorpersecutionuk.org

150 alternatives to lead shot with biodegradable wads five minutes on just cartridges and there are 5 listed for clay shooting, 2 of which are out of stock and 2 are single use plastic wads leaving just ONE.

then for live quarry 62 listed 27 are out of stock 27 are biodegradable wads but many are within the out of stock lot or bismuth shot at £1500+ per 1000. So in reality very few actually in stock and affordable.

So no where near the 150 claimed.

 

[Liveonce]

https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/green-et-al_cej_22_18_25.pdf

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I actually think its been a spectacular own goal, it was always going to be the case that the vast majority of peope wouldn’t make the switch until forced to. Now the (spurious) evidence is there its been weaponised by the anti shooting brigade and used against us highlighting its failure.

Farming Today - 10/03/25 - Lead shot and agricultural contractors - BBC Sounds

The phase-out of lead shot and why it doesn't seem to be happening.

www.bbc.co.uk

Shooting industry hilariously claims ‘significant progress’ made on the failed voluntary transition away from toxic lead ammunition

Further to this morning’s news that a new study by leading UK academics has shown the shooting industry’s complete failure to achieve its much-heralded five-year voluntary transition aw…

raptorpersecutionuk.org

That does not actually make any sense. There is no lead ban. Let's repeat that...there is no lead ban! Yes, those campaigning for a lead ban are frustrated by our efforts and lashing out and have been doing so for decades long before the voluntary transition and the following post from WWT underlines that:

How did we get here? The campaign to ban lead ammunition

BASC has opposed calls for lead bans since the 1980s. See this article from 2020 from Colin Shedden who explains:

"Within BASC I was not the only one defending lead – Dr John Harradine’s work over decades should be applauded by the shooting community. Without his contribution, on behalf of BASC, we would now have been paralleling Denmark and probably recognising 25 years of being lead free."

and

"Moving on, I came back to Scotland and have been BASC’s Scottish director for 25 years. Over this period I helped guide Scottish Government when they introduced their own legislation to restrict the use of lead shot on or over wetlands in 2004. I helped ensure that this did not affect moorland (thereby exempting grouse shooting) and also facilitated the ability to shoot ducks and geese with lead over stubble fields and when shooting away from wetland features."

Lead Shot: A Historical Reflection

In this blog, BASC Scotland director, Dr Colin Shedden, explores BASC’s long-standing involvement with lead shot and how the policy and science has evolved over the years.

basc.org.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I see you have dropped the word affordable alternatives to lead which you used to also say.

Thanks, yes, the positioning has changed and will keep changing in line with product developments and political realities. A few years ago the defence was "lead makes you beautiful and healthy". Would you like us to keep that one going?

 

[Pellet Pinger]

That does not actually make any sense. There is no lead ban. Let's repeat that...there is no lead ban!

Who said there was?

 

[Liveonce]

That does not actually make any sense. There is no lead ban. Let's repeat that...there is no lead ban!

Can you tell the author/s of this paper that also please.

https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/green-et-al_cej_22_18_25.pdf

 

[Liveonce]

Thanks, yes, the positioning has changed and will keep changing in line with product developments and political realities. A few years ago the defence was "lead makes you beautiful and healthy". Would you like us to keep that one going?

So how many of your 150 alternative are affordable for the average working man or pensioner, just cartridges list not one pigeon shooting cartridge using non toxic shot with or without a biodegradable wad.

then bismuth at £1450 to £1730 per thousand are they really affordable ?

So yes it’s just as important to have then affordable as available or you may as well make them all with gold shot.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Shooting industry hilariously claims ‘significant progress’ made on the failed voluntary transition away from toxic lead ammunition

Further to this morning’s news that a new study by leading UK academics has shown the shooting industry’s complete failure to achieve its much-heralded five-year voluntary transition aw…

raptorpersecutionuk.org

150 alternatives to lead shot with biodegradable wads five minutes on just cartridges and there are 5 listed for clay shooting, 2 of which are out of stock and 2 are single use plastic wads leaving just ONE.

then for live quarry 62 listed 27 are out of stock 27 are biodegradable wads but many are within the out of stock lot or bismuth shot at £1500+ per 1000. So in reality very few actually in stock and affordable.

So no where near the 150 claimed.

Thanks. Should the various threatened restrictions in GB or EU (+NI) be implemented and end dates set, do you foresee manufacturers here and overseas adapting forthwith resulting in subsequent changes in supply and demand and thus increased product availability?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Who said there was?

Exactly, there is no lead ban and you could perhaps be thankful to BASC for that instead of knocking BASC at every opportunity. Just a thought.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

So how many of your 150 alternative are affordable for the average working man or pensioner, just cartridges list not one pigeon shooting cartridge using non toxic shot with or without a biodegradable wad.

then bismuth at £1450 to £1730 per thousand are they really affordable ?

So yes it’s just as important to have then affordable as available or you may as well make them all with gold shot.

Supply and demand will kick in. And you have not answered my question - a few years ago the defence was "lead makes you beautiful and healthy". Would you like us to keep that one going?

 

[Liveonce]

Thanks. Should the various threatened restrictions in GB or EU (+NI) be implemented and end dates set, do you foresee manufacturers here and overseas adapting forthwith resulting in subsequent changes in supply and demand and thus increased product availability?

No they are struggling to make cartridges now, due to lack of components, especially propellants, unless the end date is well into the future and the wars have ended and Nato has rearmed.

Then all that steel shot that must come from China, would they meet the quantity required for both the EU and U.K.

edit to add why do you think just cartridges lists so many out of stock items? you look to be out of touch of reality.

 

[ColinBr]

Supply and demand will kick in. And you have not answered my question - a few years ago the defence was "lead makes you beautiful and healthy". Would you like us to keep that one going?

I have a very strong fear that the demand will go up and the supply chain will not follow suit.

Only 1 direction the price goes in this certainty.

Oh I will eat a dozen hats if that's not the case.

 

[Liveonce]

Supply and demand will kick in. And you have not answered my question - a few years ago the defence was "lead makes you beautiful and healthy". Would you like us to keep that one going?

Don’t ever recall the shooting organisation stating that, proof please.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

No they are struggling to make cartridges now, due to lack of components, especially propellants, unless the end date is well into the future and the wars have ended and Nato has rearmed.

Then all that steel shot that must come from China, would they meet the quantity required for both the EU and U.K.

And that's exactly what BASC has been arguing about with the HSE for some time now. As a result the HSE recommended timeline for restrictions on lead shot for live quarry shooting to take effect have been extended from 3 to 5 years. Is that 5-year timeframe acceptable to you? Currently the EU proposals are for 3-year timeline.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Don’t ever recall the shooting organisation stating that, proof please.

Google it!

 

[Liveonce]

And that's exactly what BASC has been arguing about with the HSE for some time now. As a result the HSE recommended timeline for restrictions on lead shot for live quarry shooting to take effect have been extended from 3 to 5 years. Is that 5-year timeframe acceptable to you? Currently the EU proposals are for 3-year timeline.

if you exclude a ban on lead shot for clay shooting and the five year timeframe is for live quarry only then probably five years from the conclusion of the ukraine war is likely to be achievable, given the game season is only a few months,
Clay cartridges with lead shot mainly use single base propellant where as steel shot game cartridges mainly use double based propellant, the latter is used a lot in military munitions.

 

[Liveonce]

Google it!

just one hit on Pigeon Watch, not going to read that lot to determine the originator.

https://pigeonwatch.co.uk/topic/445257-shoothub-podcast-lead-shot-latest-with-bascs-terry-behan/page/7/