An huge own goal by the Shooting Organizations - the lead farce

[Tim.243]

I think the focus of that will be migratory wildfowl. Given the fact that wild grey partridge chicks have been found by the GWCT to ingest lead shot it would be wise not to shoot the likes of magpie and carrion crow over brood rearing areas in the summer with lead shot to reduce the risk those chicks eating lead shot in their foraging areas and dying as a result, and undoing all the good work on habitats and predator control.

What WILL happen Conor is a lot of people who shoot pests such pigeons & corvids will just pack up and then leave a huge void in that process resulting in (just like deer) vast increase's in numbers each year.
Pest control is left to members of the public who fund it themselves as farms have no interest only that the person is out there shooting. They don't do it themselves (a few might) but are happy to leave it to someone else with the £££ cost time/effort.

Dengie (in Essex) crop dryers who grow Lucerne require people to use fibre wad the steel options are very expensive also limited in the requirement's they state which in turn the cost is not supported by the farmers.

Grants for high seats deer fencing tree planting but no support for the man in the hide!

I am sure the links you will put up of studies a vast number of those people who write them won't have sat in a hide on a cold day on winter rape!

Steel works ( I shoot a good number of duck) it is fast but runs out of energy quicker (why I decoy ducks so they are closer than take on the long shots with less energy in the shot) compared to lead on pigeons but shooting ducks is not pest control with a pocket full of cartridges easy enough for a few duck compare the 1:5/1:75 to 1 for a 100 pigeons then that will grow old very quickly in steel resulting in the first line in my post.

Tim

 

[jimmer.13]

For lead shot, from GWCT wesbsite:

Scientists estimate that millions of birds suffer from sub-lethal effects of lead shot every year throughout Europe. Research estimates suggest that between 30-60,000 and 50-100,000 birds are likely to perish in the UK each winter as a direct result of lead shot poisoning. Long-term monitoring found that 8.1% of birds found dead between 2000-2010 had died from ingesting lead pellets. Some animals had ingested hundreds of pellets.

Some far reaching figures there especially when there is no mention of how many birds were tested.
Surely with a lead ban over wetlands and the foreshore we should be seeing a massive increase in wildfowl both residential and migratory??
Personally in all my wildfowling areas I have rarely seen a decrease or increase in numbers over 35 years. Pretty consistent to be perfectly honest.
Why have we seen an unprecedented increase in Buzzards’s and red kites predominantly around shoots?These animals scavenge dead and shot game birds that have been missed by pickers up. I would expect to find the stubbles littered with poisoned BOP. But actually no…….. there isn’t.
Not saying it never happens but what I’m actually saying is it is being used to hammer shooting in all its forms. It’s a chink in the armour that has been exploited by those that oppose all shooting and the ownership of firearms. BASC are as guilty as the rest of all the organisations for not being robust enough to nip it in the bud years ago.

 

[terrier1]

Some far reaching figures there especially when there is no mention of how many birds were tested.
Surely with a lead ban over wetlands and the foreshore we should be seeing a massive increase in wildfowl both residential and migratory??
Personally in all my wildfowling areas I have rarely seen a decrease or increase in numbers over 35 years. Pretty consistent to be perfectly honest.
Why have we seen an unprecedented increase in Buzzards’s and red kites predominantly around shoots?These animals scavenge dead and shot game birds that have been missed by pickers up. I would expect to find the stubbles littered with poisoned BOP. But actually no…….. there isn’t.
Not saying it never happens but what I’m actually saying is it is being used to hammer shooting in all its forms. It’s a chink in the armour that has been exploited by those that oppose all shooting and the ownership of firearms. BASC are as guilty as the rest of all the organisations for not being robust enough to nip it in the bud years ago.

And there it is a real honest opinion from a shooting man of over 35 years who live in the real world.

I will be out stalking next week and I will have to watch out for all these dead birds I don't trip over them and injure myself.

 

[Pellet Pinger]

Nature is efficient at hoovering up medium to small sized dead birds. With the likes of avian flu, lead poisoning and all sorts of diseases, and old age, its the bigger birds like swans, geese and birds of prey that tend to get discovered by humans and then tested. Think of robins. Many people think 'their' robin has lived in the garden for a decade or more as they never found a dead robin. The average age span of a robin is 13 months.

I just simply do not buy these figures. So how has the magical top figure of 100,000 dead birds dying of lead poisoning every year been drawn up then if you are saying that we don’t discover small to medium sized birds and only the likes of swans and geese are found and tested. Nature isnt that effcient at cleaning up the mess of a scavengers ie feathers,we all know whats left behind after a bird of prey has stripped its prey, likewise we’ve all seen footage of foxes plucking birds, tell tale signs. If this was the case the countryside would look like an explosion in a pillow factory permanently. How come we don’t stumble upon these larger dead birds when we are out yet somehow folk with an agenda against shooting can find enough to conduct a study and make our life difficult?
Prior to taking up shooting i fished week in week out on the competitive match circuit all over the country for over 30 years, before and after the lead shot ban in angling and wetlands, i cannot ever recall seeing a goose/swan/duck floating down a river or on the banks, is that because the alligators and crocodiles snaffled them up before we spotted them?
Its not just about the toxicity of lead, its about the spurious nature of the information thats peddled to suit the narrive.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Maybe that’s why we’ve so many kites & buzzards these days - they’re all hoovering up the dead robins & grey partridge that we’ve inadvertently killed via lead shot. Hang on a sec, shouldn’t they all be falling outta the sky with secondary poisoning……..

Talk about constructing a narrative to sell your story. We all know lead is toxic but when looking at with open eyes I do sense a load of ballacks! This is a narrative being pushed by the anti shooting brigade & a long time ago research still being quoted today should have been questioned and put into perspective.
Caffeine, sugar, processed foods, certainly tobacco, micro plastic’s, all sorts of other shite are far more toxic to life on this planet than a bitta lead shot.
As opposed to having the ghonas to standing up to this BASC dropped a major clanger and got on board with some political bandwagon dropping us right in it.
There should be choice for those that do & those that don’t, market place decides. If you want to sell lead free, go fill ya boots with a clean conscience. If you’re happy to crack on then so be it.
Lead free is not the key to keeping our right to shoot, it’s only another nail in its coffin.

There is no evidence of lead shot poisoning in robins as far as I am aware. There is evidence of lead shot poisoning in grey partridge.

I don't think there is evidence of caffeine, sugar, processed foods or tobacco having lethal impacts on birds, that is namely to do with humans not birds. The key issue with lead shot is its impact on birds, not humans.

There is growing evidence of the presence of micro-plastics in birds and the impacts are still being researched.

Accumulation of microplastics in predatory birds near a densely populated urban area

The pollution due to plastic and other anthropogenic particles has steadily increased over the last few decades, presenting a significant threat to th…

www.sciencedirect.com

You are singling out BASC yet nine organisations supported a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. That includes CA and NGO. It remains your choice to use lead shot.

As regards birds of prey there is no GB evidence which provides a causal link between lead shot and lead poisoning resulting in mortality or sublethal effects on predatory or scavenging species - and BASC has highlighted this to the HSE in its consultation responses. There is evidence of causal links from outside of the UK.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

What WILL happen Conor is a lot of people who shoot pests such pigeons & corvids will just pack up and then leave a huge void in that process resulting in (just like deer) vast increase's in numbers each year.
Pest control is left to members of the public who fund it themselves as farms have no interest only that the person is out there shooting. They don't do it themselves (a few might) but are happy to leave it to someone else with the £££ cost time/effort.

Dengie (in Essex) crop dryers who grow Lucerne require people to use fibre wad the steel options are very expensive also limited in the requirement's they state which in turn the cost is not supported by the farmers.

Grants for high seats deer fencing tree planting but no support for the man in the hide!

I am sure the links you will put up of studies a vast number of those people who write them won't have sat in a hide on a cold day on winter rape!

Steel works ( I shoot a good number of duck) it is fast but runs out of energy quicker (why I decoy ducks so they are closer than take on the long shots with less energy in the shot) compared to lead on pigeons but shooting ducks is not pest control with a pocket full of cartridges easy enough for a few duck compare the 1:5/1:75 to 1 for a 100 pigeons then that will grow old very quickly in steel resulting in the first line in my post.

Tim

Yes, increased costs are a major concern, and amongst the arguments BASC has successfully made against lead ban proposals for decades.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Some far reaching figures there especially when there is no mention of how many birds were tested.
Surely with a lead ban over wetlands and the foreshore we should be seeing a massive increase in wildfowl both residential and migratory??
Personally in all my wildfowling areas I have rarely seen a decrease or increase in numbers over 35 years. Pretty consistent to be perfectly honest.
Why have we seen an unprecedented increase in Buzzards’s and red kites predominantly around shoots?These animals scavenge dead and shot game birds that have been missed by pickers up. I would expect to find the stubbles littered with poisoned BOP. But actually no…….. there isn’t.
Not saying it never happens but what I’m actually saying is it is being used to hammer shooting in all its forms. It’s a chink in the armour that has been exploited by those that oppose all shooting and the ownership of firearms. BASC are as guilty as the rest of all the organisations for not being robust enough to nip it in the bud years ago.

The research is mainly in USA on the positive impact on various wildfowl species both population recovery and reduced lead levels in tested birds etc. from restrictions on the use of lead shot in wetlands that came into effect and been effectively enforced decades ago and across much of their migratory routes.

But even there its a growing area of research - indeed they are still researching the positive impact on human health from a ban on petrol, for example behavioural issues, and I don't know if that's even been looked at yet here. As for birds, I am not aware of any research on this in the UK or mainland Europe as yet (I do recall some site specific research on a reduction of lead shot availability at some sites in Spain perhaps) and there would be factors to take into account as regards lead shot being picked up by birds along flyways in mainland Europe and lead shot ingestion outside wetlands in the UK and of course the issue of non-compliance with existing regulations.

The increase of buzzards and red kites here and in mainland Europe is due to many factors including a reduction in illegal killing, and some modelling has been done that estimates that the overall European population of ten raptor species is at least 6% smaller than it should be, solely as a result of poisoning from lead ammunition. However, as stated earlier, modelling aside, there is no GB evidence which provides a causal link between lead shot and lead poisoning resulting in mortality or sublethal effects on predatory or scavenging species.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Not saying it never happens but what I’m actually saying is it is being used to hammer shooting in all its forms. It’s a chink in the armour that has been exploited by those that oppose all shooting and the ownership of firearms. BASC are as guilty as the rest of all the organisations for not being robust enough to nip it in the bud years ago.

BASC has been successfully challenging lead ban proposals for decades and there is no lead ban so that is hardly a fair comment. We now have various lead restriction proposals being considered in GB and across Europe (+NI) so we are not alone in this - its the same for 7+ million hunters across Europe.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I just simply do not buy these figures. So how has the magical top figure of 100,000 dead birds dying of lead poisoning every year been drawn up then if you are saying that we don’t discover small to medium sized birds and only the likes of swans and geese are found and tested. Nature isnt that effcient at cleaning up the mess of a scavengers ie feathers,we all know whats left behind after a bird of prey has stripped its prey, likewise we’ve all seen footage of foxes plucking birds, tell tale signs. If this was the case the countryside would look like an explosion in a pillow factory permanently. How come we don’t stumble upon these larger dead birds when we are out yet somehow folk with an agenda against shooting can find enough to conduct a study and make our life difficult?
Prior to taking up shooting i fished week in week out on the competitive match circuit all over the country for over 30 years, before and after the lead shot ban in angling and wetlands, i cannot ever recall seeing a goose/swan/duck floating down a river or on the banks, is that because the alligators and crocodiles snaffled them up before we spotted them?
Its not just about the toxicity of lead, its about the spurious nature of the information thats peddled to suit the narrive.

They are estimates based on samples. That will always be the case when it comes to any research considering population level figures with a minimum and maximum estimate. Few of us have the time or inclination to go through reading reams of scientific papers to come to an opinion on whether we agree with what the scientists are telling us - its based on trust and/or whether or not the science reinforces what we already believe anyway and/or have observed directly.

For example, in all the years on these threads not once has anyone questioned the assertion we read about in the press that microplastics are a problem for wildlife. What's your view on microplastics and is that based on direct observation on your part?

The GWCT scientists have reviewed all the evidence and they are telling us that lead shot is a problem we need to take ownership of - and that is the basis for the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. We believe the GWCT when it comes to their research and their view on the benefit of predator control, benefits of suitable habitats for wild game and birds, and so on. So, why is it different when it comes to their expert assessment of all the science on lead shot? Open question.

 

[Tim.243]

The research is mainly in USA on the positive impact on various wildfowl species both population recovery and reduced lead levels in tested birds etc. from restrictions on the use of lead shot in wetlands that came into effect and been effectively enforced decades ago and across much of their migratory routes.

But even there its a growing area of research - indeed they are still researching the positive impact on human health from a ban on petrol, for example behavioural issues, and I don't know if that's even been looked at yet here. As for birds, I am not aware of any research on this in the UK or mainland Europe as yet (I do recall some site specific research on a reduction of lead shot availability at some sites in Spain perhaps) and there would be factors to take into account as regards lead shot being picked up by birds along flyways in mainland Europe and lead shot ingestion outside wetlands in the UK and of course the issue of non-compliance with existing regulations.

The increase of buzzards and red kites here and in mainland Europe is due to many factors including a reduction in illegal killing, and some modelling has been done that estimates that the overall European population of ten raptor species is at least 6% smaller than it should be, solely as a result of poisoning from lead ammunition. However, as stated earlier, modelling aside, there is no GB evidence which provides a causal link between lead shot and lead poisoning resulting in mortality or sublethal effects on predatory or scavenging species.

A question Conor do you shoot pigeons with steel and if you do how was the results?

Regarding using research from overseas , part of the GL advice fronted by Ms Spain & Co was cherry picked from Fish Farms in Israel where the staff would make scarecrows from the yellow oilskin coats to denture Cormorants which is a far cry from
Woodpigeons on OSR to the point that it is a joke that people in positions in all of this umbrella of shooting really are way out of touch as to use data from a Fish Farm in Israel to a green crop in the UK.
And the lead ban people will be cast from the same die just on a Monday.

We all have bills to pay but common scene left the building in the 80's never to return.

 

[old 30-06]

I invariably see upwards of three Buzzards each time I visit the shoot. I have also seen seven Red Kites on the same ploughed field. Never seen a "lead shot poisoned" one. Plenty of Sparrow Hawks as well. Birds of prey doing very well in my neck of the woods.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

A question Conor do you shoot pigeons with steel and if you do how was the results?

Regarding using research from overseas , part of the GL advice fronted by Ms Spain & Co was cherry picked from Fish Farms in Israel where the staff would make scarecrows from the yellow oilskin coats to denture Cormorants which is a far cry from
Woodpigeons on OSR to the point that it is a joke that people in positions in all of this umbrella of shooting really are way out of touch as to use data from a Fish Farm in Israel to a green crop in the UK.
And the lead ban people will be cast from the same die just on a Monday.

We all have bills to pay but common scene left the building in the 80's never to return.

I haven't shot pigeons for many years and when I did it was mostly with lead shot. If I were to do so again I would use steel shot namely because of what I have learned from years of this lead debate and not just because I work for BASC - we have a choice too - its a voluntary transition! That's interesting about the Israeli fish farms and general licences, is there a link, as I didn't find anything online, I don't do policy work on general licences anymore. Certainly when we were reviewing the various HSE consultations there was a lot of cherry picking going on, which was challenged line by line.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I invariably see upwards of three Buzzards each time I visit the shoot. I have also seen seven Red Kites on the same ploughed field. Never seen a "lead shot poisoned" one. Plenty of Sparrow Hawks as well. Birds of prey doing very well in my neck of the woods.

Indeed, birds of prey have been returning to many places they were long absent from, including town centres/suburbs. The BTO gives a good overview here:

Monitoring raptors in the UK

www.bto.org

 

[Smellydog]

I invariably see upwards of three Buzzards each time I visit the shoot. I have also seen seven Red Kites on the same ploughed field. Never seen a "lead shot poisoned" one. Plenty of Sparrow Hawks as well. Birds of prey doing very well in my neck of the woods.

Same here, kites, gosh, even peregrine.

Bird flue is on the rise, shot a pheasant with it last week.
Not had to kill a bird suffering from lead poisoning though .

We've been had boys, we've been had....

 

[jimmer.13]

The GWCT scientists have reviewed all the evidence and they are telling us that lead shot is a problem we need to take ownership of - and that is the basis for the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. We believe the GWCT when it comes to their research and their view on the benefit of predator control, benefits of suitable habitats for wild game and birds, and so on. So, why is it different when it comes to their expert assessment of all the science on lead shot? Open question

Let’s just think about this logically and go back 150 years. Punt guns shooting pound after pound of lead on washes rivers and estuaries.
Huge private shoots on extraordinary large days. Keepers farmers and laymen shooting vermin pests and food.
Always an abundance of quarry even through the industrial revolution and all its pollution.
Why now is it now that lead shot and rifle ammunition is being blamed for the decline and damage.
You mentioned micro plastics, well there is a start. Poor management and the destruction of habitat is more likely the key factor. Population explosion on our island and across the globe. Pollutants from poor agricultural and industrial practices and the lack of predator control on and near breading and nesting grounds. Restrictions on trapping, snaring, hunting with dogs have all in their own way been detrimental causes to the effect of what is being discussed.
Lead is just the next target for those who are emotionally retarded when it comes to wildlife and the management of nature in general.
Propaganda and psy ops are a very powerful weapon. It’s being used to influence those who have limited knowledge about such matters. It’s about time the shooting and hunting organisations get all their collective sh1t in one sock and come out with all your big guns blazing.
It’s not like you all don’t have the support and the funding?

 

[B&W FOX]

Just looking through an old 1999 magazine and this pops up.
Thank good I've been able to use lead for the last 25 years for pest control, target and clay shooting.
I've probably got enough to last me till I die !!!

 

[Pellet Pinger]

They are estimates based on samples. That will always be the case when it comes to any research considering population level figures with a minimum and maximum estimate. Few of us have the time or inclination to go through reading reams of scientific papers to come to an opinion on whether we agree with what the scientists are telling us - its based on trust and/or whether or not the science reinforces what we already believe anyway and/or have observed directly.

For example, in all the years on these threads not once has anyone questioned the assertion we read about in the press that microplastics are a problem for wildlife. What's your view on microplastics and is that based on direct observation on your part?

The GWCT scientists have reviewed all the evidence and they are telling us that lead shot is a problem we need to take ownership of - and that is the basis for the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. We believe the GWCT when it comes to their research and their view on the benefit of predator control, benefits of suitable habitats for wild game and birds, and so on. So, why is it different when it comes to their expert assessment of all the science on lead shot? Open question.

Estimates based on samples? And BASC peddle that on “trust” without questioning how they came about those quite alarming figures. Surely someone in BASC has the same concerns about the lack of evidence of up to 100,000 dead birds every year out in the field as expressed in this thread? Has anyone from your organization actually asked questions?
Or is it a case of “that will do for us! lets roll with it”.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Let’s just think about this logically and go back 150 years. Punt guns shooting pound after pound of lead on washes rivers and estuaries.
Huge private shoots on extraordinary large days. Keepers farmers and laymen shooting vermin pests and food.
Always an abundance of quarry even through the industrial revolution and all its pollution.
Why now is it now that lead shot and rifle ammunition is being blamed for the decline and damage.
You mentioned micro plastics, well there is a start. Poor management and the destruction of habitat is more likely the key factor. Population explosion on our island and across the globe. Pollutants from poor agricultural and industrial practices and the lack of predator control on and near breading and nesting grounds. Restrictions on trapping, snaring, hunting with dogs have all in their own way been detrimental causes to the effect of what is being discussed.
Lead is just the next target for those who are emotionally retarded when it comes to wildlife and the management of nature in general.
Propaganda and psy ops are a very powerful weapon. It’s being used to influence those who have limited knowledge about such matters. It’s about time the shooting and hunting organisations get all their collective sh1t in one sock and come out with all your big guns blazing.
It’s not like you all don’t have the support and the funding?

I would imagine folk in 1875 would have had similar feelings about the previous 50, 100 or 150 years in the face of science and change. WAGBI was founded in 1908 to:

• Help the professional wildfowlers, who were earning a meagre living on our coasts.
• Address his alarm at the increasing drainage and subsequent development of much wildfowl habitat.
• Address the growing need to defend wildfowling, largely against the growing enthusiasm of extremists seeking the total protection of wild birds.

I recall reading that the automobile was also seen as a threat to local wildfowling interests because it would allow outsiders to travel to those areas to hunt 'their' wildfowl.

There are evidence-based restrictions on the use of lead shot in wetlands across the world including USA, Canada, and Europe. I don't envisage shooting and hunting organisations expending resources on pushing back the clock in the UK or elsewhere in the world.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Estimates based on samples? And BASC peddle that on “trust” without questioning how they came about those quite alarming figures. Surely someone in BASC has the same concerns about the lack of evidence of up to 100,000 dead birds every year out in the field as expressed in this thread? Has anyone from your organization actually asked questions?
Or is it a case of “that will do for us! lets roll with it”.

If you don't trust the GWCT's assessment of the science then that is your choice. The science as reviewed by the GWCT underlines the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting in the UK and that transition continues to be supported by organisations including BASC, CA and NGO. It is your choice whether to move away from lead shot for your live quarry shooting.

 

[jimmer.13]

I would imagine folk in 1875 would have had similar feelings about the previous 50, 100 or 150 years in the face of science and change. WAGBI was founded in 1908 to:

• Help the professional wildfowlers, who were earning a meagre living on our coasts.
• Address his alarm at the increasing drainage and subsequent development of much wildfowl habitat.
• Address the growing need to defend wildfowling, largely against the growing enthusiasm of extremists seeking the total protection of wild birds.

I recall reading that the automobile was also seen as a threat to local wildfowling interests because it would allow outsiders to travel to those areas to hunt 'their' wildfowl.

There are evidence-based restrictions on the use of lead shot in wetlands across the world including USA, Canada, and Europe. I don't envisage shooting and hunting organisations expending resources on pushing back the clock in the UK or elsewhere in the world.

As usual completely miss the point.