SGA lead free ammo survey results

[cjm1066]

Is lead dangerous?

If a big bit hits you at high speed YES

Via ingestion through eating game/drinking water via lead pipes etc, it will raise your personal lead levels, but so what, your body your choice?

Politically, it's an easy stick for Wild Justice etc to cause mischief for our sport. That's it greatest danger.

 

[Freeforester]

Analogous:

How scientific consensus work and why:

The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2005 was awarded jointly to Barry J. Marshall and J. Robin Warren for their discovery of the bacterium Helicobacter pylori and its role in gastritis and peptic ulcer disease. Before Marshall and Warren's work, there was a prevailing consensus in the medical community that stress, lifestyle factors, and excessive acid secretion were the primary causes of gastritis and peptic ulcers.

It's worth noting that the pharmaceutical industry had a vested interest in maintaining the status quo regarding ulcer treatment, as drugs like ranitidine (Zantac) and omeprazole (Losec) were significant revenue generators.

Ok, now pay your carbon tax..

 

[25 Sharps]

Everyone seems to be very extremist on their views on lead free? Either massively for or massively against.

Surely there are both pros and cos

Pros -
. completely non toxic , better for putting food in for human consumption
. Anti organisations can’t use lead ammo as a lever against the shooting world
. Tidier carcasses due to less violent expansion (unless of course you are having to pin shoulders in order to make the bullet expand)

Against -
. Lead free doesn’t kill as well (people argue that it does till they turn blue in the face but then double it up with a comment about just pinning deer through the shoulders)
. Monolithic bullets do ricochet noticeably worse than a frangiable lead bullet
. Monolithic bullets tend to have lower bc , some people say that it doesn’t make a difference at stalking distances, normally only whilst promoting their favourite monolithic bullet that has the bc of a brick. Like it or loath it, a fair few deer are shot past 250m and bc starts mattering at that distance.

That’s an outdated view (and I was a massive lead free sceptic, see my post history)

Lead free bullets that break up, think yew tree or that type, kill just as well with lead with traditional shot placement.

Though it remains my biggest worry with lead free I’ve noticed no more ricochets with copper bullets (yew tree and barnes) than I did with lead bullets for deer, basically none.

Not all lead free bullets are bricks, check out the 6.5 and 7 mm yew tree TLR BCs if you don’t believe me. My .280 shooting yew tree 124 gr hollow points has pretty much exactly the same drop at 300 yards as my 300 PRC does shooting 225 gr ELD-M. They also expand and kill well at that range.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

The only

That’s an outdated view (and I was a massive lead free sceptic, see my post history)

Lead free bullets that break up, think yew tree or that type, kill just as well with lead with traditional shot placement.

Though it remains my biggest worry with lead free I’ve noticed no more ricochets with copper bullets (yew tree and barnes) than I did with lead bullets for deer, basically none.

Not all lead free bullets are bricks, check out the 6.5 and 7 mm yew tree TLR BCs if you don’t believe me. My .280 shooting yew tree 124 gr hollow points has pretty much exactly the same drop at 300 yards as my 300 PRC does shooting 225 gr ELD-M. They also expand and kill well at that range.

I hope you read my other post where I said there are a few exceptions. Yew tree are out of the question for many (most shooting under contract including myself need to use factory ammunition) leaving a few expensive odd balls which have their own problems (rws fragments really well but is the most expensive you can get and has appalling bc) and a few of the others that rather than fragment break into a few pieces causing ssg like terminal performance. Iv seen a lot of deer shot with non toxic and I have to say I disagree about barnes not being prone to ricochet. What ground are you shooting on? Because on flat ground in the south of England they bounce like crazy[/QUOTE]

 

[Heym SR20]

Studies haven't been done long enough for results
Altho there is no documented cases it's been suggested that there MAY ..be a case that ingested lead over time may lead to increase cases of likes of alzheimers / dementia etc in later life ..

Read into that what you may

Same as anything else in life .. yoy make your own mind / choices


Paul

As I have stated above, but a number of SD members don’t want to understand is that we are learning more and more about the method of action of heavy metals on the ability of the body to control stray proteins, disease etc. This is your immune system. Things like cancer, Alzheimers, neurological disease etc are all where the body starts going wrong in reproducing cells and other body matter.

It seems that the effects on the key proteins involved in policing how these cells are replicated etc are adversely affected by the presence of heavy metals. Some of this work was published over the last five years, some is as yet unpublished due to patent applications.

 

[Heym SR20]

Ask yourself: Why it is that there are still so many old houses plumbed with lead piping, in the central belt of Scotland for example, if it was the case that lead was so immediately dangerous to human health would it not be reasonable to imagine that far more lives could be saved from lead intoxication by mandating a full change over to either copper of plastic (each with their own issues, but we’ll park that)? For context, the mRNA jab masquerading as a vaccine did far greater damage to human health in mere months than centuries of lead piping.

Read between the Weasley words; it is not lead per se which poses the danger to health but the various oxides and certain compounds of lead, this has been known and acknowledged for decades. The authorities are aware of this, and are as a consequence relaxed about lead piping in homes where humans of all ages (surprise surprise) currently dwell.

The numerous instances of lost & wounded chest shot deer to copper projectiles are well enough catalogued, hence the need to shoot them through the shoulders, and other factors should be borne in mind.

Yup its lead compounds that do the damage. When you ingest small particles of lead they dissolve in stomach acids creating lead compounds that are then adsorbed into your blood.

This paper discusses this further and demonstrates in pigs the bioavailability of lead fragments that are consumed in contaminated venison. Pigs were used as they are a very good surrogate fir the human gut.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of...

journals.plos.org

 

[25 Sharps]

The only

I hope you read my other post where I said there are a few exceptions. Yew tree are out of the question for many (most shooting under contract including myself need to use factory ammunition) leaving a few expensive odd balls which have their own problems (rws fragments really well but is the most expensive you can get and has appalling bc) and a few of the others that rather than fragment break into a few pieces causing ssg like terminal performance. Iv seen a lot of deer shot with non toxic and I have to say I disagree about barnes not being prone to ricochet. What ground are you shooting on? Because on flat ground in the south of England they bounce like crazy

[/QUOTE]
Any bullet can bounce on flat ground, lead hunting bullets are designed to retain weight, they make it a selling point, that retained weight can bounce.

I’m shooting mainly flat to flatish arable in the south of England, where it’s flat I put a seat up.

Appreciate that you may be restricted to factory ammunition, but you didn’t restrict your comments to factory ammunition. I’ve also been impressed with the barnes I’ve used, though I’ve not pushed beyond 200 yards with those.

Hopefully, someone will provide a factory offering with a decent fragmenting bullet soon, as the bullets are readily available!

 

[Leec6.5]

As many will know I am the biggest advocate of copper bullets particularly Barnes TTSX, but for the last year I’ve been using lead.

Picked up 600 7mm sierra gamekings at £35 a box

I do have 3 boxes of barnes in stock but frankly after shooing copper for the best part of 20 years and frankly I can’t be bothered.

I am quite enjoying shooting lead, it works

 

[palmer_mike]

As many will know I am the biggest advocate of copper bullets particularly Barnes TTSX, but for the last year I’ve been using lead.

Picked up 600 7mm sierra gamekings at £35 a box

I do have 3 boxes of barnes in stock but frankly after shooing copper for the best part of 20 years and frankly I can’t be bothered.

I am quite enjoying shooting lead, it works

Wow, welcome back. Glad to read you have seen the light

 

[Tim.243]

Yup its lead compounds that do the damage. When you ingest small particles of lead they dissolve in stomach acids creating lead compounds that are then adsorbed into your blood.

This paper discusses this further and demonstrates in pigs the bioavailability of lead fragments that are consumed in contaminated venison. Pigs were used as they are a very good surrogate fir the human gut.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, retention of ammunition residues in the tissues of...

journals.plos.org

I would say the local off-licence might be the cause not the lead pipes.
Stop talking out of your bagpipes

• • 10 September 2024

The number of people in Scotland whose death was caused by alcohol remains at a high level, with the largest number of deaths in 15 years.

The latest figures from National Records of Scotland, (NRS) show 1,277 people died from conditions caused by alcohol in 2023

 

[Leec6.5]

Wow, welcome back. Glad to read you have seen the light

Wouldn’t say I’ve seen the light, I had a bloke tell me that I wouldn’t get a 150gn copper bullet to stabilise in my 18” 7x57 bless him he works in a gun shop, obviously he doesn’t know that I suffer from Ferralitus and there is only one way out of a situation like that and it will work! so when the grass is cut I’ll whip a load up and go roll something over.

Red rag to a bull laid £100 on the table (we were in a pub) bet I do

bless him he works in a gun shop, obviously he doesn’t know that I suffer from Ferralitus and there is only one way out of a situation like that and it will work! he took the bet so when the grass is cut so I can get to my range I’ll get a load get him over and have his wallet open.

150gn barnes ttsx @ 2350 ish will work and kill what ever I want to poke it at

 

[Tim.243]

Wouldn’t say I’ve seen the light, I had a bloke tell me that I wouldn’t get a 150gn copper bullet to stabilise in my 18” 7x57 bless him he works in a gun shop, obviously he doesn’t know that I suffer from Ferralitus and there is only one way out of a situation like that and it will work! so when the grass is cut I’ll whip a load up and go roll something over.

Red rag to a bull laid £100 on the table (we were in a pub) bet I do

bless him he works in a gun shop, obviously he doesn’t know that I suffer from Ferralitus and there is only one way out of a situation like that and it will work! he took the bet so when the grass is cut so I can get to my range I’ll get a load get him over and have his wallet open.

150gn barnes ttsx @ 2350 ish will work and kill what ever I want to poke it at

Vader has spoken.

 

[VSS]

Apologies, I thought it also included roe does in Scotland with the proposed changes.

Roe does are in season anyway in March.
I believe the proposal was to extend the season for red hinds, which currently ends in the middle of February.

 

[25 Sharps]

Arent all the majority of pipes in your house made from copper?,.......
why isn't all our water blue?


No such thing as "non toxic" ammunition
Its non lead and in the grand scheme of things they (Cu, Zn, Sn, Bi, W, etc) are inifinitelty less toxic than lead.

To lump them together when it comes to bullets and say "they" all do one thing or another is the same as saying "All lead bullets work well on all deer".... naive

If they ricochet then you have shot into a backstop that promotes ricochet
Only one organisation has done an "independant" study into ricochet risk using the same backstiop substrates with different bullets
The NRA

The report wasn't publicly released, aruably because the results didn't fit the anti"non lead" agenda many of the stakeholders were looking for.
Names redacted to protect the innocent:

But that report appears to be entirely about the ability of a sand butt to capture NLA, nothing to do with ricochet risk in the field, unless you’re ahooting in sand dunes!

 

[Smellydog]

Lead reacts with hydrochloric acid but is a slow reaction. The more diluted the acid as in like a belly full of food the reaction is less.
Hydrogen bubbles form and lead chloride salts. Lead chloride salts are not easily dissolved in water. The body uses water. The salts pass through.
Lead chloride is used in glass and other important manufacturing processes including infra red sensors/equipment and solar panels etc etc.
Lead chloride is thought to be a carcinogenic but not proven.

It is very very wrong for anyone here to imply or suggest that lead is dissolved in the the stomach to the extent that lead is completely dissolved, it is not.
It is also wrong to imply a whole range of lead compounds are released, they are not.
Only one compound is produced, a naturally occuring salt that is not easily dissolved in water.

Stop the fear based mongering, stop it now!

 

[nun_hunter]

Roe does are in season anyway in March.
I believe the proposal was to extend the season for red hinds, which currently ends in the middle of February.

Makes even less sense then that Scottish stalkers shooting roe does in March would be traumatised by shooting Hinds then too It goes back to my original point of the SGA appearing to use emotionally charged language and skewed polling data to push something they personally see as an issue. Something we'd expect from antis but not a responsible shooting organisation.

 

[VSS]

Makes even less sense then that Scottish stalkers shooting roe does in March would be traumatised by shooting Hinds then too It goes back to my original point of the SGA appearing to use emotionally charged language and skewed polling data to push something they personally see as an issue. Something we'd expect from antis but not a responsible shooting organisation.

My thoughts too.

 

[Heym SR20]

Lead reacts with hydrochloric acid but is a slow reaction. The more diluted the acid as in like a belly full of food the reaction is less.
Hydrogen bubbles form and lead chloride salts. Lead chloride salts are not easily dissolved in water. The body uses water. The salts pass through.
Lead chloride is used in glass and other important manufacturing processes including infra red sensors/equipment and solar panels etc etc.
Lead chloride is thought to be a carcinogenic but not proven.

It is very very wrong for anyone here to imply or suggest that lead is dissolved in the the stomach to the extent that lead is completely dissolved, it is not.
It is also wrong to imply a whole range of lead compounds are released, they are not.
Only one compound is produced, a naturally occuring salt that is not easily dissolved in water.

Stop the fear based mongering, stop it now!

If thats the case, you willing to participate in a study where you will have a diet of game that is known to be contaminated with lead fragment for a month and have your blood tested at several points this period?

Before answering please read the paper I posted above and explain why lead levels in the blood in pigs fed lead contaminated meat went up significantly.

Even more so please explain how you explain the significant rise in lead blood levels in the population of German hunters and game meat eaters studied in the paper below, if lead is not dissolved and then passes through the gut blood / membrane.

Influence of Ingestion of Game Meat on Blood Concentration of Lead in Southern Germany: A Pilot Study - PMC

Consumption of game meat may exert additional lead exposure with potential health risks. The purpose of the present pilot study was to determine blood lead concentration in game meat and no game meat consumers in southern Germany. Concentration of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Ratel]

Ah yes
One of the first signs of high levels of lead in the human body is diminished brain capacity..

Totally agree Ed, how long have you been using lead?

 

[Smellydog]

If thats the case, you willing to participate in a study where you will have a diet of game that is known to be contaminated with lead fragment for a month and have your blood tested at several points this period?

Before answering please read the paper I posted above and explain why lead levels in the blood in pigs fed lead contaminated meat went up significantly.

Even more so please explain how you explain the significant rise in lead blood levels in the population of German hunters and game meat eaters studied in the paper below, if lead is not dissolved and then passes through the gut blood / membrane.

Influence of Ingestion of Game Meat on Blood Concentration of Lead in Southern Germany: A Pilot Study - PMC

Consumption of game meat may exert additional lead exposure with potential health risks. The purpose of the present pilot study was to determine blood lead concentration in game meat and no game meat consumers in southern Germany. Concentration of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

My lernid friend, in the link I see the words "may" and "potential".
Therefore I'm not interested in the article because it it inconclusive.

There is a maybe or potential risk to my 160 mile journey in a car today. That my friend is far more real a risk to mine and others health, potentially.
The accident and emergency centers up and down the whole length of the land is on a daily basis dealing with road traffic incidents.
It is also dealing with self induced harmful effects from smoking tobacco products and drinking excessively.
I don't see though a huge amount of funds having to be used on the treatment of lead poisoning of hunters and or others eating shot game. Do you?
Maybe it is, I don't know but it certainly isn't headline news is it.

The phrase using a sledge hammer to crack a nut comes to mind.

I appreciate your invitation to get involved in a study but I don't need to thanks. I'm not stupid enough to eat lead in meat. I cut it out.
Unfortunately I have to cut a lot of meat out because this stupid country mandates such powerful rifles be used on deer putting huge demands on a bullets ability to not shatter.
Personally I'd prefer much slower larger bullets that I cut basically cut right up to the hole and not waste so much!
I've made the right choice though by using a 3030 as it is very kind to a bullet negating lead ingress to a minimum.
Good day