Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
The OP states he is shooting deer for his own consumption. FEO has asked for confirmation of this. It supports his reason for his application.
FAC grant (Scotland) issues
- Thread starter Subsistence
- Start date
so can you post on here the HO guidelines to support the request from the FEO about his processing and storage arrangements ? it is the FEOs information that goes to the firearms licencing manager to asess his suitability and good reason to own a firearm what happens to the deer after hes shot them has nothing to do with them
Sounds like the same women who made someone who was on a dsc1 course with jump through hoops to get her ticket, she had no permissions but booked a number of stalks and only then did she get her ticket,but she made her sweat for it.
Subsistence
Well-Known Member
I did reply promptly to this mornings email, politely stating my prossesing/storage facilities. Not that I believe it was necessary but I'm trying my best to give them all the Information they request.
If they had asked at the home visit I could have shown them my freezer full of venison and rabbit.
I also gave them the name and contact details of the guid I have previously used and have a future booking with, at my home visit. Again now I have a syndicate place this seems less relevant.
I'm not trying to be antagonist, I would just like the prosses I'm going through to more closely align with the prosses other people have reported.
They said that it was my good reason that was holding me back, now that I have rectified that, they seem to be looking for other (perhaps outside their remit) reasons to not support my application.
Which to be honest I would be a little vexed if, after following thier guidance and paying for and securing a syndicate place, they then decide to not support my application.
If they had asked at the home visit I could have shown them my freezer full of venison and rabbit.
I also gave them the name and contact details of the guid I have previously used and have a future booking with, at my home visit. Again now I have a syndicate place this seems less relevant.
I'm not trying to be antagonist, I would just like the prosses I'm going through to more closely align with the prosses other people have reported.
They said that it was my good reason that was holding me back, now that I have rectified that, they seem to be looking for other (perhaps outside their remit) reasons to not support my application.
Which to be honest I would be a little vexed if, after following thier guidance and paying for and securing a syndicate place, they then decide to not support my application.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Don’t read into others experience. It is down to you and the FEO.
There will be a meeting when applicants are discussed.
“Fred wants an FAC. He claims he goes on paid for stalks but hasn’t provided of such. He claims he likes to keep the venison for his own consumption, but he lives in a second flat and only appears from our visit to be a small fridge. Quite how he would take home and store even just a roe deer is not clear”.
Versus
“James has put in for an FAC for deer stalking purposes. He provided evidence of several outings on such as estate. We have spoken with the head stalker, Mr XYZ, and they know him well and delighted to have him back. We have known XYZ for many years and he is runs a good tight ship. James does live in a small flat, but he does have a large chest freezer full of game from the shoots on which he beats regularly. He and his family eat a lot of game, and venison forms part of this. He holds his DSC1 and has joined ABC syndicate - again I have confirmed this with the syndicate head etc”.
Doing due diligence and verification on individual or a company (which I have done professionally) is all about building up a picture of behaviour and character with lots of little bits of information. Over the years we have walked away from investing in many companies where the information was lacking or didn’t quite add up. Usually its down to the individuals concerned and they way they interact with each other or not as the case may be.
Based on the information you've provided, it's really unfortunate to hear about the challenges you're facing with Police Scotland. Like others, I'm not at all surprised by BASC’s response they've been largely ineffective for some time now. These days, they seem more focused on collecting subscriptions than offering meaningful support. I'd suggest redirecting your membership fee to an organisation that genuinely represents its members, when you find one let me know.
For what it's worth, the law does support firearm acquisition for paid stalking something BASC should be well aware of and advocating for. That’s how many UK-based hunters legally obtain large-calibre rifles for African safaris. Last time I checked, the UK countryside wasn’t teeming with any of the Big Five, so justifying a .404 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs for “local” use as a good reason might raise a few eyebrows, though arguably perfect for woodland reds in both cases or perhaps a kevlar wearing bunny, they are dangerous you know lol. If we did have the Big Five roaming the UK, at least it might resolve the rambler issue and spice up the sport somewhat but I digress.
The questions you were asked about "processing" are irrelevant and have nothing to do with good reason. A more appropriate exchange (abridged) should’ve been something like:
“First-time applicant I see? Could I check your security?”
“Yes, of course this way.”
"thats in good order thanks, only you who knows where the keys are?
"Yes only me"
“Thanks. Its say you applying for the rifles to undertake deer stalking”
“Yes I’ve completed my DSC1 and have already been on several paid stalks using estate rifles.”
“Excellent. Do you have anything confirming that and also what you intend to do in the future at all please? Stalking bookings, land permissions, or syndicate membership perhaps?”
“Yes, here’s everything, including copies for you to take away.”
“Perfect. Oh, and you’ve not added a moderator to your ticket would you like to include one along with the "any lawful quarry" condition just in case, you decide to go to bag an angry boar at some point? Saves us having to organise a variation in the future as I see you have applied for an approriate calibre.”
“Ah good point. Yes, please.”
That’s the kind of clear, efficient interaction we expect, not the muddled nonsense you received. All we ever ask is that the law be applied properly and fairly. Admittedly few FEO visits go exactly like this but we can dream.
All in all, it’s a frustrating situation. I can only say that my experience with my FEO in Scotland has been very positive. He’s a retired officer, not frontline, and now works in a supporting capacity, extremely helpful, knowledgeable, and approachable. I can call him for advice and always get a clear steer on what’s needed/likelyhood. I realise I’ve been quite fortunate in that respect, as I have with all my FEO's over the years in various parts of the country. Police Scotland do seem to have got there act together over the last decade, accept in your case it would appear.
If things don’t improve, you might consider joining a target shooting club and acquiring your rifles for that purpose instead. Variations in Scotland aren’t handled by individual FEOs but by a centralised team within Police Scotland. In my experience, they’re generally very reasonable. They usually don’t require a home visit for variations unless you're adding to your existing capacity, in which case your FEO might be asked to check security again. My most recent variation was processed in about three weeks no questions asked, I provided my good reason in the form of a letter with supporting evidence and it was followed by a quick cabinet and security inspection for the additional firearms.
It’s not ideal, and I appreciate it can feel like an uphill battle, but that route might be your best fallback if the syndicate arrangement doesn’t pan out.
Best of luck I genuinely hope you get it sorted soon. And welcome to the shooting fraternity a grumpy, opinionated, perpetually moaning bunch and that’s just the entry criteria. Enjoy!
For what it's worth, the law does support firearm acquisition for paid stalking something BASC should be well aware of and advocating for. That’s how many UK-based hunters legally obtain large-calibre rifles for African safaris. Last time I checked, the UK countryside wasn’t teeming with any of the Big Five, so justifying a .404 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs for “local” use as a good reason might raise a few eyebrows, though arguably perfect for woodland reds in both cases or perhaps a kevlar wearing bunny, they are dangerous you know lol. If we did have the Big Five roaming the UK, at least it might resolve the rambler issue and spice up the sport somewhat but I digress.
The questions you were asked about "processing" are irrelevant and have nothing to do with good reason. A more appropriate exchange (abridged) should’ve been something like:
“First-time applicant I see? Could I check your security?”
“Yes, of course this way.”
"thats in good order thanks, only you who knows where the keys are?
"Yes only me"
“Thanks. Its say you applying for the rifles to undertake deer stalking”
“Yes I’ve completed my DSC1 and have already been on several paid stalks using estate rifles.”
“Excellent. Do you have anything confirming that and also what you intend to do in the future at all please? Stalking bookings, land permissions, or syndicate membership perhaps?”
“Yes, here’s everything, including copies for you to take away.”
“Perfect. Oh, and you’ve not added a moderator to your ticket would you like to include one along with the "any lawful quarry" condition just in case, you decide to go to bag an angry boar at some point? Saves us having to organise a variation in the future as I see you have applied for an approriate calibre.”
“Ah good point. Yes, please.”
That’s the kind of clear, efficient interaction we expect, not the muddled nonsense you received. All we ever ask is that the law be applied properly and fairly. Admittedly few FEO visits go exactly like this but we can dream.
All in all, it’s a frustrating situation. I can only say that my experience with my FEO in Scotland has been very positive. He’s a retired officer, not frontline, and now works in a supporting capacity, extremely helpful, knowledgeable, and approachable. I can call him for advice and always get a clear steer on what’s needed/likelyhood. I realise I’ve been quite fortunate in that respect, as I have with all my FEO's over the years in various parts of the country. Police Scotland do seem to have got there act together over the last decade, accept in your case it would appear.
If things don’t improve, you might consider joining a target shooting club and acquiring your rifles for that purpose instead. Variations in Scotland aren’t handled by individual FEOs but by a centralised team within Police Scotland. In my experience, they’re generally very reasonable. They usually don’t require a home visit for variations unless you're adding to your existing capacity, in which case your FEO might be asked to check security again. My most recent variation was processed in about three weeks no questions asked, I provided my good reason in the form of a letter with supporting evidence and it was followed by a quick cabinet and security inspection for the additional firearms.
It’s not ideal, and I appreciate it can feel like an uphill battle, but that route might be your best fallback if the syndicate arrangement doesn’t pan out.
Best of luck I genuinely hope you get it sorted soon. And welcome to the shooting fraternity a grumpy, opinionated, perpetually moaning bunch and that’s just the entry criteria. Enjoy!
can you post the section of HO guidelines that states FEOs should take into consideration deer processing facilites and venison storage please ?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
It is all part of demonstrating good reason and providing supporting evidence. Quite a reasonable question -“ what do you do with the deer you shoot?”. “None of your feffing business” I don’t think would be a helpful answer.
the good reason is good reason to posses an fac not what you do with carcasses after , so if you could post the section where it states processing facilites and storage for venison id be obliged .............. ill wait
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Chapter 12 - Good Reason.
And in the Statutory Guidance - Other enquiries.
There is no definitive list as the Guidance states, but that the enquiries should build up a full picture of applicant and the good reason.
The applicant stated he wanted a rifle to shoot deer for his own consumption. How will you process and store? is a perfectly reasonable follow on question.
again ... the good reason is to possess the fac the processing and storage facilites have nothing to do with the feo and you know it , hence why its not listed in the guidelines
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Honey bees don’t waste time telling flies that honey doesn’t like shite.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
You live in a council flat, I am guessing a housing association has keys/access? This will be a sticking point, as will the fact that the police will know the criminal records of your neighbours.
Subsistence
Well-Known Member
I would certainly hope that they do not have keys to my residence. I was informed when I collected the keys that they gave me all of them.
If the nighbours are the problem then why not just tell me that, not lead me on a merry goose chase.
well thought out response did you think of that yourself ? so basically no theres nothing in the guidelines that mentions it at all as we all knew , thank you
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
But there is specific direction for the police to make extended enquiries in all sorts into the suitability of the applicant and use the terms may include but limited to - have a read of the sections I referred to.well thought out response did you think of that yourself ? so basically no theres nothing in the guidelines that mentions it at all as we all knew , thank you
The fact that the OP has already invested in processing and storage facilities for his own venison, to my mind demonstrates he is serious and committed to deerstalking, and just want a rifle on a whim.
absolutely but the applicants processing and storage facilities for venison are none of thier buisness , what he does with any beasts after theyre shot has no relevance or bearing on his suitability to possess firearms
i think my point being here is we jump through enough hoops as a community without have extras put upon us and welcoming them
Subsistence
Well-Known Member
And that's where I'm at right now.
On one hand I'm happy do do what licencing are asking, in a polite, honest and helpfull manner. In order to get what I want to be able to go about my lawfully buisness
On the other hand I don't want to make a rod for my own back or the community as a whole, by just caving and doing whatever they tell me, even if I think it's overboard.
As with most things in life its a fine balancing act.
roaring_stag
Well-Known Member
Reading through the above thread makes me feel very lucky to have the excellent FEO's in Perth/Perthshire. I can honestly say that I have never encountered a single issue with any renewal/grant/variation process that I have been through over the years. They are helpful, informative, professional and consistent.
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