My new custom rifle is driving me crazy, help needed!

[randello88]

Weird harmonics maybe? Barrel definitely won’t be touching the stock. Not to say something else isn’t going on.

I’d get someone else to shoot it, see how they go.

Then investigate, barrel, bedding, bolts etc

So basically you think this behaviour of the rifle is not normal/to be expected?

 

[Mungo]

This is a long post but please take the time to read and help me because i am not understanding much..

INTRODUCTION
So, I am not a precision shooter but i have always got very good results at the range and while hunting, with shots at for from 30 to 300 meters with my other main hunting rifle, shooting from a backpack, so i was pretty confident about my abilities to shoot in field conditions and about my fundamentals. Also the few times i checked the zero of my old hunting rifle (a bergara b14 hunter) in the field i have never had issues with good bullseyes at 100 m. That rifle was the same weight and it was a .308 as well but it was shooting lower recoiling rounds.

THE GOOD
I recently put togheter a custom .308 with NF NX8 scope, hawkins rings, manners EH4 stock with élite shell (so a carbon fiber outer shell), defiance action and a 22 bartlein medium profile barrel. It weights around 10.5 lbs and i kept it reasonably light because i use it for hunting. At the range it proved many Times it can shoot amazingly well with at least 3 factory ammo, from prone and from a bench, with and without bipod. The last three times i went to the range (to check some behaviours of the rifle for example in relation to cleaning regime and dope) i was shooting some geco factory ammo which the rifle shoots regularly in one rugged hole, no joke. Many times when I shoot the third, fourth or fifth round, i can’t literally see the new hole.

THE BAD
The problem is that it seems like even very minor changes in the way i stay behind the rifle and, even more, in the rear rest or in the terrain the bipod is resting on, generate a terrible opening of groups. I didn’t manage to make it shoot well using a harris bipod on the gravel for example: the other day i wasted 40 rounds and the groups were around 1 MOA, even 1.5 with even 2 fliers, with only 2 groups around 0.5 MOA. Then i started shooting at the same target from a bench, all shots in the same hole roughly. At the end of the day, going from bench to bipod to backpack the max spread at 100 m was 2 MOA (fliers included) or 1.5 without fliers and including the slight positional changes of POI. So today i went at the range again to try to rule out issues with the scope and try to get some consistency in group sizes, this time in a controlled enviroment, and i started from a bench with 5 rounds in the same hole, then switched to bipod and again 5 almost in the same hole, then i tried the backpack, 2 terrible groups up to 2 MOA and then, when i paid more attention to consistency, one 0.7 MOA group always with the pack as a rest. Then i went back to the bipod prone and i tried to keep the rifle less ideally to see the amount of shift and a very bad group came out again (more than 2 MOA with a crazy flier). So i decided to focus more and make a good shot and again, other 2 very good group, around 0.3 MOA. Then i switched to the bench again, three shots in the same hole. I went home with even more doubts than before. When groups are bad, stringing is mostly vertical.

QUESTIONS:

1. has this much of an opening of groups to be expected when shooting with the bipod resting on gravel (maybe the worst front test for the bipod) even if the fundamentals remain decently solid? Is it normal for a rifle to be so not forgiving about shooter positions and, apparently even more, to rear and front rest? I want to understand if this has to be expected or if this rifle for some reasons is less forgiving in regard to not ideal recoil management caused by uneven or yielding terrain and a not so heavy rifle with a hot 308 load
2. during my several range trips i noticed that typically groups open up really bad when i am tired and almost never in the first 10 shots or so after i get to the range (i can’t recall a single shot in the first 10 of any range trip which was outside 0.7-1 MOA regardless of the position and the rests) after i get to the range, did you experience opening in groups for being tired after just a few shots at the range (around 12-15)? This still seems too extreme of a change in group size to me.
3. a half moa gun, assuming at least that the crosshair doesn’t move on the target, which kind of Max group spread is expected to produce in field conditions, prone and with a bipod resting on gravel or on a similar not consistent surface?
4. I would get better results and less accuracy loss using another bipod (not a harris) with more play in its legs so i can load it and this way the terrain could impact less on the accuracy of the rifle? In this case which are pros and cons of other types of bipods?
5. the last doubt is about clothing: it seems like (could be a coincidence) I shoot better with at least a sweater over the shirt (???). I never thought something like this could determine major changes in accuracy but maybe you have had similar experiences
6. Forend control: with this rifle, using a bipod, i am using the crossed arm hand hold and the result is that i have much less control on the recoil of the rifle, which even being a 308, on this rifle with a carbon fibre shell and a pretty hot factory load, is substantial

I should add that the scope seems not to be the issue, the rifle is reliable and well balanced, all screws are tight to specs and the ammo are of the same lot. Mirage is not a concern and also temperature and parallax are accounted for.

In the pic with 2 target a, you can see the average performance in range conditions (from a bipod and rear bag with crossed arms hold) at 100 m (the group on the left is 5 shots, including the clean barrel one which is the higher impact, same for the target on the right but there the shots are 4 in total. This range session was to check variation of the POI after the “fast cleaning” between hunting sessions. Here

This all sounds very normal, and doesn't suggest anything wrong with the equipment.

This is just what happens when you change position, and start to get frustrated and over think it.

There are two solutions: (a) much more practice; or (b) no practice at all and just go shoot. Both work.

 

[Jagged77]

So basically you think this behaviour of the rifle is not normal/to be expected?

Haven’t got a clue, it could be? Unlikely though if it shoots well from the bench. If one of my rifles acts odd and I know it’s usually a shooter and nothing fundamental has changed - my first assumption is it’s me.

If you’re getting horrid bipod hop then that’s what I’d say is the culprit and work on your position. Like I said look at snipers hide prone shooting tutorials. They’re easy enough - I got my sister in law shooting half inch groups off a bag and bipod on a concrete floor within 10 mins of shooting. It was her first time shooting anything. Fundamentals are important.

 

[randello88]

This all sounds very normal, and doesn't suggest anything wrong with the equipment.

This is just what happens when you change position, and start to get frustrated and over think it.

There are two solutions: (a) much more practice; or (b) no practice at all and just go shoot. Both work.

Yeah i am definitely overthinking it. I am just amazed that groups can open up like this. Do you think this rifle is particularly sensitive as some here suggested? So chamging the bipod will not likely help?

 

[HonestJohn]

I had a lightweight rifle (well, a few), one of them, indoor range, bug hole groups, put it on anything but a sandbag or similar in the field, and I’d get 4” groups. Another one, with a bipod, Jesus, it was like 8” groups, off a rolled up gun slip, 3” groups, off a sandbag, 0.25” groups.

Both had synthetic stocks that had empty cavities in the forend. The .308 I filled with a heavy epoxy both in the barrel channel and inside the butt of the stock, that made it shoot far more normally in the field!

The other, only shoot it odd sticks or daysack, and I hold the forend very firmly to keep it down.

A solid stick with some weight, and a ‘pusher’ cartridge, not a ‘kicker’ is in my view the ideal.

Maybe try a 120g copper round and see if the lighter bullets make it more manageable

 

[randello88]

Haven’t got a clue, it could be? Unlikely though if it shoots well from the bench. If one of my rifles acts odd and I know it’s usually a shooter and nothing fundamental has changed - my first assumption is it’s me.

If you’re getting horrid bipod hop then that’s what I’d say is the culprit and work on your position. Like I said look at snipers hide prone shooting tutorials. They’re easy enough - I got my sister in law shooting half inch groups off a bag and bipod on a concrete floor within 10 mins of shooting. It was her first time shooting anything. Fundamentals are important.

I know every theoretical lesson now, everytime i try to go shooting same thing happens, the bipod hops no matter what.. i could go try shooting literally in the field and see what happens but getting confidence in the rifle back would take some time! The fact that the first groups are usually very good says something.. bad groups and wild fliers comes up only after at least 15 rounds and they are all
In the same group

 

[HonestJohn]

I know every theoretical lesson now, everytime i try to go shooting same thing happens, the bipod hops no matter what.. i could go try shooting literally in the field and see what happens but getting confidence in the rifle back would take some time! The fact that the first groups are usually very good says something.. bad groups and wild fliers comes up only after at least 15 rounds and they are all
In the same group

I assume you are letting the barrel cool between shots? If you’re pinging off 15-20 rounds the barrel will be burning and harmonics with a normal rifle will be all over the place

 

[randello88]

I had a lightweight rifle (well, a few), one of them, indoor range, bug hole groups, put it on anything but a sandbag or similar in the field, and I’d get 4” groups. Another one, with a bipod, Jesus, it was like 8” groups, off a rolled up gun slip, 3” groups, off a sandbag, 0.25” groups.

Both had synthetic stocks that had empty cavities in the forend. The .308 I filled with a heavy epoxy both in the barrel channel and inside the butt of the stock, that made it shoot far more normally in the field!

The other, only shoot it odd sticks or daysack, and I hold the forend very firmly to keep it down.

A solid stick with some weight, and a ‘pusher’ cartridge, not a ‘kicker’ is in my view the ideal.

Maybe try a 120g copper round and see if the lighter bullets make it more manageable

The issue is that when i saw the very tight groups i bought 1200 euros worth of ammo of the same lot lol

So you also have lightweight rifles that don’t have this behaviour? Why some does and others do not? In this case we are not talking about 4 MOA Luckily so maybe it is normal to see groups opening up to 1 or 1.5 MOA in field conditions?

 

[randello88]

I assume you are letting the barrel cool between shots? If you’re pinging off 15-20 rounds the barrel will be burning and harmonics with a normal rifle will be all over the place

actually when groups go very bad (I mean over the 1- 1.5 MOA i see in field conditions) is because i start getting frustrated and i start shooting faster, maybe not letting the rifle cool down properly.. sometimes though I shot like that and then, always without letting it cool down, i change position to a more ideal one, not rushing shots, and groups become very small again.. so most likely it is not a barrel heating issue

 

[jthyttin]

AFAIK Harris bipod is easy to "load", if you want to do it.

If you want to minimize the "amplifier" effect in your rifle, i.e. get a rifle that is as forgiving to shooter error as possible, look at "barricade benchrest" (PRS shooting).

You need to sell your current rifle, though, since one of thew things they emphasize is balance (for the ability to spot your shots) and you seem keen on this also. This basically requires putting a lot of weight in barrel, and especially in the front section ("no taper" profile). Putting weight in stock just doesn't cut it, even though they have long forends and do put weight there (PRS race gun might weight 12-15kg!)

In the process you'd probably switch to 6.5mm this or that also.

And since Frank Galli has been mentioned, "bipods don't hop!" (you know if you know...)

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Yeah i am definitely overthinking it. I am just amazed that groups can open up like this. Do you think this rifle is particularly sensitive as some here suggested? So chamging the bipod will not likely help?

Get someone else who can shoot, to shoot the rifle. Preferably without discussing your 'issues'.

Regards

JCS

 

[HonestJohn]

The issue is that when i saw the very tight groups i bought 1200 euros worth of ammo of the same lot lol

So you also have lightweight rifles that don’t have this behaviour? Why some does and others do not? In this case we are not talking about 4 MOA Luckily so maybe it is normal to see groups opening up to 1 or 1.5 MOA in field conditions?

There’s no reason why in the field, you could not duplicate what you do on the range, Ceteris Paribus. In ‘field positions’, of course not, but that’s changing a major variable.

If I was you, Do let the barrel cool between groups. Do ditch the bipod. Do hold the forend.

If you find it still is too jumpy and erratic and your confidence is lost, maybe ask your shop to trade in some ammo for a lighter bullet and thread it for a muzzle brake. Worst case, have it re chambered in 30-06 which is a more ‘shove’ in your should round than the .308.

 

[randello88]

AFAIK Harris bipod is easy to "load", if you want to do it.

If you want to minimize the "amplifier" effect in your rifle, i.e. get a rifle that is as forgiving to shooter error as possible, look at "barricade benchrest" (PRS shooting).

You need to sell your current rifle, though, since one of thew things they emphasize is balance (for the ability to spot your shots) and you seem keen on this also. This basically requires putting a lot of weight in barrel, and especially in the front section ("no taper" profile). Putting weight in stock just doesn't cut it, even though they have long forends and do put weight there (PRS race gun might weight 12-15kg!)

In the process you'd probably switch to 6.5mm this or that also.

And since Frank Galli has been mentioned, "bipods don't hop!" (you know if you know...)

so you are saying i should sell it because it is not balanced? How do you know it is not balanced?

How can you load a harris with rotating feet on grivel or on a bench?

 

[randello88]

There’s no reason why in the field, you could not duplicate what you do on the range, Ceteris Paribus. In ‘field positions’, of course not, but that’s changing a major variable.

If I was you, Do let the barrel cool between groups. Do ditch the bipod. Do hold the forend.

If you find it still is too jumpy and erratic and your confidence is lost, maybe ask your shop to trade in some ammo for a lighter bullet and thread it for a muzzle brake. Worst case, have it re chambered in 30-06 which is a more ‘shove’ in your should round than the .308.

It isn’t a matter of field and range i think, this of course can open up groups a bit anyway. I think it’s a matter of supporting the rifle in the same way, in fact i got 1 MOA groups luttino the bipod on gravel and 1 MOA groups with slight variations of the rest repeteability.

When i shot in the mountains with a bench to a target on a grass field, same place where i was getting 1 MOA groups shooting on gravel, the rifle printed 2 one hole 5 shot groups in a row.

Can you consider shooting while resting bipod legs on gravel a field position, even if everything else is more or less like what you find at a shooting range?

 

[jthyttin]

I'm saying you should sell it, if you want to benefit from PRS style rifle design.

Since you'd be left with at most the action, were you to build a PRS style rifle from your current one.

What you actually need to do, is to find a paper bag and do some breathing exercises... really

 

[randello88]

By the way guys, i took a look at groups i shot from bipod while resting on gravel.. they are actually all belle one MOA except for 2 3 shot groups (out of 60 rounds more or less) which have some important vertical stringing and one of them is 2 MOA, the other one 1.5

I will and that zero was pretty repeteable and, changing all these positions, shots never landed more than 1 inch away from the bullseye, being generally much closer than that, on average less than half a inch. This was in 2 different range sessions for a total of 80 rounds, alternating between bipod, backpack and bench with bipod.

Maybe this really is with in the norm and i am hugely overthinking it

 

[randello88]

I'm saying you should sell it, if you want to benefit from PRS style rifle design.

Since you'd be left with at most the action, were you to build a PRS style rifle from your current one.

What you actually need to do, is to find a paper bag and do some breathing exercises... really

Ahah so you were joking. It’s difficult to get from a post on a forum. being a psychiatrist i have better remedies than a paper bag. Jokes aside, i am usually pretty calm and rational in regard to shooting, especially in regard to hunting. This rifle though drove me crazy for a mix of being new to these mind of tests and having spent a lot of money on this build and being very passionate about it. after 350 rounds between load choice, cleaning regime tests, dope tests, field tests, i would just like to go killing something with it. but not understanding if its something normal i have to deal with (and maybe i already did not even knowing it with my other rifle) or if this rifle is flawed in some way Made me go a little crazy over this eheh

 

[Mungo]

Yeah i am definitely overthinking it. I am just amazed that groups can open up like this. Do you think this rifle is particularly sensitive as some here suggested? So chamging the bipod will not likely help?

No.

I can go from shooting 0.5 MOA to 2 MOA from one day to the next, with exactly the same kit.

It’s all you.

Things to bear in mind:

- most bipods bounce on solid surfaces, and you need to find a technique that works for you if you’re going to be shooting off them a lot. This requires experimenting.
- shooting a bipod on gravel is a disaster, unless you really jam it in and load it firmly (ie. push down til the feet are on something firm).
- moving your head around as you shift positions can change things enormously. An adjustable cheek raiser really helps here (for me, off a bipod, I need it up, off sticks I need it down).
- what you do with your non-trigger hand makes a big difference. In general, pick one approach and stick with it. Going sniper hold for off bipod but fore-end hold for off bag will cause all sorts of variation.
- some sort of rear rest is always helpful.

 

[KimE]

Your expectation has changed then you went from a budget rifle to a custom.

 

[randello88]

Your expectation has changed then you went from a budget rifle to a custom.

What do you mean?