Firearms certificate application

[markm81]

It would seem Police Scotland are equally as bad then mate.

It certainly was in my case. I am also in Scotland (although Edinburgh office) and whilst I am also a member of a HOAC, my deer conditioned rifle was specifically obtained based on paid stalking, and my HOAC did not really support it's application as it is a historic rifles club.

I know that when I applied, I also included my deer stalking guide as a contact, and they were called up to ask about my firearms safety.

I take it from the lack of mention in any of your replies that you are not currently a member of any shooting organisation?

Morning
I never thought to add my Deer Stalking guide as a contact, I am a member of BASC. So the firearms certificate can be based on paid stalks and not needing to have your own land, however this would be an added bonus if you did.

 

[VSS]

It would seem Police Scotland are equally as bad then mate.

Morning
I never thought to add my Deer Stalking guide as a contact, I am a member of BASC. So the firearms certificate can be based on paid stalks and not needing to have your own land, however this would be an added bonus if you did.

A lot of professional stalking guides aren't prepared to be a named contact / referee / mentor, because if they did they'd be inundated with requests.
But if your guide is a simply a friend who takes you out stalking then it is definitely worth talking to him (or her).

 

[chriswjx]

It would seem Police Scotland are equally as bad then mate.

Morning
I never thought to add my Deer Stalking guide as a contact, I am a member of BASC. So the firearms certificate can be based on paid stalks and not needing to have your own land, however this would be an added bonus if you did.

Definitely does not need your own land. That should still be explicitly stated in the HO guidance.

Would recommend contacting the BASC firearms team then as you should get support and their advice. They deal with many more cases like this than the people on this forum...

Officially contact your guide first and ask whether they would be willing to vouch for your safe practice. I can't see why they wouldn't, but it's good to be polite.

 

[co’den]

If it was me I’d withdraw the application, join a rifle club with access to the calibre(s) you want to shoot and re-apply using target shooting as good reason.
I get the logic that paid (I assume guided) stalks don’t constitute good reason as most guides will allow use of an estate rifle. Also, you may be gaining loads of experience of hill walking with a rifle on your back but it doesn’t demonstrate experience of gun handling, safety, etc etc.
However, I also get that you might want your own rifle.
In your situation, target shooting would give you experience in gun safety and good reason for your application. A variation for legal quarry could be considered later.
I produced a tonne of evidence when I went through my first grant application with Police Scotland. Essentially, I made it as easy as possible for the FEO to recommend approval.

 

[markm81]

Definitely does not need your own land. That should still be explicitly stated in the HO guidance.

Would recommend contacting the BASC firearms team then as you should get support and their advice. They deal with many more cases like this than the people on this forum...

Officially contact your guide first and ask whether they would be willing to vouch for your safe practice. I can't see why they wouldn't, but it's good to be polite.

I will give it a few months and get some more stalks and range time with the guide I am using then reapply and see what happens, so in the meantime I am just going to withdraw my application and when I go back in for my FAC application I will have a lot more of added information on it.

 

[bbell]

If it was me I’d withdraw the application, join a rifle club with access to the calibre(s) you want to shoot and re-apply using target shooting as good reason.
I get the logic that paid (I assume guided) stalks don’t constitute good reason as most guides will allow use of an estate rifle. Also, you may be gaining loads of experience of hill walking with a rifle on your back but it doesn’t demonstrate experience of gun handling, safety, etc etc.
However, I also get that you might want your own rifle.
In your situation, target shooting would give you experience in gun safety and good reason for your application. A variation for legal quarry could be considered later.
I produced a tonne of evidence when I went through my first grant application with Police Scotland. Essentially, I made it as easy as possible for the FEO to recommend approval.

The issue with withdrawing is you are letting the firearms department make up their own rules and give people the run around when you don’t challenge things that is going against the guidance. Paid stalks are clearly laid out in the guidance.

Now that said I am still waiting for my interview and nothing but paid stalks. We’ll see how mine goes once I get an interview. Might have to put my money where my mouth is.

 

[co’den]

The issue with withdrawing is you are letting the firearms department make up their own rules and give people the run around when you don’t challenge things that is going against the guidance. Paid stalks are clearly laid out in the guidance.

Now that said I am still waiting for my interview and nothing but paid stalks. We’ll see how mine goes once I get an interview. Might have to put my money where my mouth is.

Aye, it’s down to interpretation. The issue with a refusal is that you’re likely be instructed to apply after a period of 6 months or a year or whatever, and you’ll need to detail that refusal on the next application. If you withdraw, you’re free to start from scratch right away. The council I received during a conversation with my FEO prior to formally applying was “the last thing you need is a partial refusal”. Obviously that was specific to my application but it tells me a partial or full refusal is pretty significant.

Good luck with your application.

 

[Subsistence]

It certainly was in my case. I am also in Scotland (although Edinburgh office) and whilst I am also a member of a HOAC, my deer conditioned rifle was specifically obtained based on paid stalking, and my HOAC did not really support it's application as it is a historic rifles club.

I know that when I applied, I also included my deer stalking guide as a contact, and they were called up to ask about my firearms safety.

I take it from the lack of mention in any of your replies that you are not currently a member of any shooting organisation?

May I ask how long ago was this. I'm just trying to figure out if they have changed the way they want things done or if its inconsistencies across differnt Scottish departments l.

 

[Subsistence]

I will give it a few months and get some more stalks and range time with the guide I am using then reapply and see what happens, so in the meantime I am just going to withdraw my application and when I go back in for my FAC application I will have a lot more of added information on it.

I know it's not how the legislation is written, or the guidance. However I feel the easiest and quickest and possibly cheapest way would be to try and secure some land to shoot over.

Wasn't the way I wanted to do it. But it sure did remove any barriers they were trying to put up in front of me very quickly indeed.

I think I was told I would need another 20 or so paid stalks and even then they wouldn't be very happy, essentially they do not like to issue FACs for paid stalks at the moment. Which in my opinion and the opinion of many here goes against the legislation and guidance.

 

[markm81]

May I ask how long ago was this. I'm just trying to figure out if they have changed the way they want things done or if its inconsistencies across differnt Scottish departments l.

It was just last week I was informed about my application

 

[Subsistence]

It was just last week I was informed about my application

Sorry I was trying to ask @chriswjx as he said he had his FAC approved for paid stalks in scotland

 

[chriswjx]

May I ask how long ago was this. I'm just trying to figure out if they have changed the way they want things done or if its inconsistencies across differnt Scottish departments l.

My FAC grant was from memory about this time 2 years ago.

 

[Subsistence]

OK thanks. It seems to me that possibly at some stage in the last couple of years, the decision makers in Scotland have changed their stance. They seem now to be trying their best to make it as difficult as possible to have an FAC issued for paid stalks, this did not seem to be the case historically

 

[enfieldspares]

No consolation to the OP but a timely lesson that the DSC 1 is not either an "open sesame" for grant of an FAC nor indeed required. Despite the "puff" that some that make profit from offering such training courses might infer it possesses no such properties.

And as, said, the law requires only for you demonstrate good reason and adequate secure storage. Showing that good reason is the key point and an FEO needs to be satisfied as to that.

Holding, or not, a DSC 1 does not show good reason. It shows proof of achieving a basic knowledge of deer and using a rifle to take deer but just the same as possessing a driving licence shows you can drive a car to a certain and tested level of ability it doesn't prove that need to have a car.

 

[chriswjx]

No consolation to the OP but a timely lesson that the DSC 1 is not either an "open sesame" for grant of an FAC nor indeed required. Despite the "puff" that some that make profit from offering such training courses might infer it possesses no such properties.

And as, said, the law requires only for you demonstrate good reason and adequate secure storage. Showing that good reason is the key point and an FEO needs to be satisfied as to that.

Holding, or not, a DSC 1 does not show good reason. It shows proof of achieving a basic knowledge of deer and using a rifle to take deer but just the same as possessing a driving licence shows you can drive a car to a certain and tested level of ability it doesn't prove that need to have a car.

Good points, but I'd argue slightly off the mark for the OP's situation.

The HO guidance suggests that paid stalks are good reason. And evidence of such bookings past and future are sufficient.

I would assume the OP has suitable storage.

So by your statement, he should have his ticket. He doesn't... Because the police aren't happy with his ability to safely handle firearms. That has nothing to do with either of your points.

Yes DSC1 is not a be all and end all, but neither is being mentored by someone else... I have seen plenty examples of poor firearms and shotgun discipline from certificate holders and "experienced" shots, and some you could chalk up to being in the heat of the moment (on a simulated/regular game day) but other times were suggestive of "typical behaviour"...

 

[DVS1]

I may not be 100% on the mark here but in Canada you have to complete a saftey handling course in order to get your P.A.L - Possession. Acquisition. License. So everyone is (in theory) at a similar base line of firearms saftey after completing the examination and theory tests.

I'm surprised the powers that be haven't got their noggins around this and developed a standard for anyone applying for a FAC must complete the course prior to the checks, medical side of things.

A money spinner for the Firearms Licensing Departments to be more self sustainable and be able to recruit more staff.


It wouldnt be hard to put together and if, PASSED AS LEGISLATION, (and adhered to as some areas have the habit of making it up as they go along) it will add a more blanket standard across the country.

Just an idea....£100 per candidate per attempt at the examination, 30 candidates per examination is £3000, 2 course dates per week is £6000, 52 weeks a year is £312,000 not to be sniffed at, just think what that could do for the Licensing Depts.

 

[VSS]

I may not be 100% on the mark here but in Canada you have to complete a saftey handling course in order to get your P.A.L - Possession. Acquisition. License. So everyone is (in theory) at a similar base line of firearms saftey after completing the examination and theory tests.

I'm surprised the powers that be haven't got their noggins around this and developed a standard for anyone applying for a FAC must complete the course prior to the checks, medical side of things.

A money spinner for the Firearms Licensing Departments to be more self sustainable and be able to recruit more staff.


It wouldnt be hard to put together and if, PASSED AS LEGISLATION, (and adhered to as some areas have the habit of making it up as they go along) it will add a more blanket standard across the country.

Just an idea....£100 per candidate per attempt at the examination, 30 candidates per examination is £3000, 2 course dates per week is £6000, 52 weeks a year is £312,000 not to be sniffed at, just think what that could do for the Licensing Depts.

Heaven forbid that, please!
Our firearms laws are just fine how they are thanks. All that needs doing is for the current legislation to be properly and consistently applied.

 

[DVS1]

Heaven forbid that, please!
Our firearms laws are just fine how they are thanks. All that needs doing is for the current legislation to be properly and consistently applied.

I agree it needs to be followed properly but the wishy washy attitude from Depts of experience has little consistency, such a course could provide it.

 

[VSS]

I agree it needs to be followed properly but the wishy washy attitude from Depts of experience has little consistency, such a course could provide it.

I don’t think it would provide anything but chaos for whoever was tasked with coordinating it, additional delays for applicants, and further restrictions for all of us.

 

[DVS1]

I don’t think it would provide anything but chaos for whoever was tasked with coordinating it, additional delays for applicants, and further restrictions for all of us.

Perhaps, I'm assuming it works smoothly in Canada...maybe some lads from that neck of the woods will chime in if they catch this thread, be interesting to know