Mannlicher-Schoenauer - is a heavy bolt lift normal?

[Scipio]

Hello SD knowledge bank - as the title suggests, this thought struck me the other day.

I have a MS Stutzen model GK presumably from the late 60ies, and it is in great condition with everything seemingly in top mechanical order, yet the bolt lift, even when dry firing, is really quite heavy indeed. So my questions are:

- Is this a typical MS thing?

- Or could be it be down to the safety type on my particular rifle? Because my GK has a tang safety mounted directly behind the action, but it doesnt lock the bolt when engaged, i believe.
So could this heavy bolt lift be a mechanical measure to try and secure the bolt against unwanted opening in the field?

- Is it common, or adviseable, to moderate how heavy the bolt lift is? And how would it be done? By adjusting the spring pressure perhaps?
I dont use it for driven hunting, so it's not like a fairly heavy bolt lift is a deal breaker, but i was wondering if it really needs to be quite as heavy as it currently is.

 

[Muir]

Put some good grease on the cocking piece and see if it helps. My 308 Steyr Scout called for it.-Muir

 

[Twodogs]

As to your exact rifle I have no knowledge but believe it to be a cock on open type action. What you are experiencing may be ‘normal’ are you able to compare to another similar rifle?
Is the bolt stiff throughout the whole lift or only during part of its travel?
Is the bolt also stiff on closing?
Possible considerations.
Are the unlocking camming surfaces in good order? No burrs, gouges or fouling that could cause excessive friction. Does the bolt rotation feel smooth?
Is the striker spring in good order? As the rifle cocks when the bolt is lifted the striker spring is compressed. If the spring was dirty/fouled this could make the bolt lift heavy.
As per @Muir you could try some dry lube/grease.

 

[User00056]

Yes, it is. I have a '65 Husqvarna based on the small ring Mauser. It's a cock-on-open action, so the bolt lift is naturally heavy. It's why they like to be worked harder than other actions. Lube won't make much difference, just be very positive when cycling the bolt

 

[deeangeo]

I have 2 MSch rifles much older than yours 1922 & 1936 vintage - the bolt lift is easy. Very slick bolt actions that slide easily into battery, lifting & extraction very smooth.
Have you stripped the bolt completely & cleaned it ? It's easy to do.
There is a Facebook page for Mannlicher Schoenauer owners that may have useful information

 

[Heym SR20]

Bolt lift pressure is really a function of the smoothness of the two bearing surfaces on the cams, along with the bearing surfaces of the lugs. If the rifle has been unused for a good while all the cam and bearing surfaces can get gummed up with old oil / grease. Over time all the volitile oils evaporate leaving a varnish like substance which combined with powder fouling etc has bugger all lubrication.

Take out the bolt. Lighter fluid / light gun oil is your friend and give it a really good clean / soak. Also the internals of the action. Get a toothbrush into all the nooks and crannies.

If you know what you are doing, strip the bolt down. Gunk on firing pin can also gum things up. A broken spring can also make things difficult.

 

[Heym SR20]

My experience of the GK is that they are a very smooth rifle to use. Bolt lift is on a par with any other rifle, but they do have a long firing pin travel so that needs to be cocked - certainly longer than a very modern rifle. This will steeper cams to cock.

The GK has a steel rotary magazine. Make sure that also nice and clean and lubricated as a stiff magazine follower can make bolt lift that much harder.

Check also that somebody has put too long screws into scope mounts that come through the action walls etc.

Those old Mannlichers should be very slick actions. Indeed open the bolt pull the trigger and tilt the barrel down and just the weight if the bolt is usually enough for the action to close and bolt handle to drop.

 

[Apthorpe]

Check whether the heaviness is caused by the cocking action or by lifting the bolt as follows:
1. With the bolt / firing pin in a "fired" state open the bolt. This should be reasonably stiff.
2. Now the bolt is cocked, without dry firing, open the bolt again. This should be smooth and easy. If stiff, then it sounds like a good clean is needed.

 

[Scipio]

First of all, thank you for all of the constructive suggestions lads, it is much appreciated!

It is very interesting to hear from @deeangeo about how his bolt lift is, and i suspect @Heym SR20 might be on to something, as it was property of an elderly chap before me, who passed. So I suspect the rifle might have been sitting in the cabinet for a few years, before i took possession of it. So i shall start with cleaning it as suggested, and see if that doesnt fix it!

@Twodogs and @Quixote you are indeed right that the MS is a cock on open style of action, but so is my Mauser 98, and it is infinitely easier to open (and close tbh) than what my MS currently is. So i think it might be a matter of cleaning. We'll soon see, but i do hope it is that simple! I shall report back once i know! .-)

 

[Scipio]

Check whether the heaviness is caused by the cocking action or by lifting the bolt as follows:
1. With the bolt / firing pin in a "fired" state open the bolt. This should be reasonably stiff.
2. Now the bolt is cocked, without dry firing, open the bolt again. This should be smooth and easy. If stiff, then it sounds like a good clean is needed.

i shall try this too! Thanks @Apthorpe! .-)

 

[j.b]

HeymSR20 has just beaten me to it, my old Mannlicher Schoenauer would close, if empty and cocked, just by dropping the muzzle sharply and letting the bolt fall under its own weight with the trigger pulled to clear the sear. If yours is genuinely heavy to operate then at the least it needs cleaning as above comprehensive recommendations. Being cock on opening it is heavier to lift when fired but I never found mine such as to draw your attention unless your very sensitive. There’s obviously a world of difference between focussing on a supposed heaviness or drag repeatedly trying it a bench and using it in the heat of the moment in the field where the only criticism might be they’re very light and have thin stocks and grips so light to carry but can be a bit needlessly spiteful in some hefty calibres!

 

[User00056]

you are indeed right that the MS is a cock on open style of action, but so is my Mauser 98, and it is infinitely easier to open (and close tbh) than what my MS currently is. So i think it might be a matter of cleaning. We'll soon see, but i do hope it is that simple! I shall report back once i know! .-)

Finger's crossed a good clean makes the world of difference

 

[deeangeo]

Those old Mannlichers should be very slick actions. Indeed open the bolt pull the trigger and tilt the barrel down and just the weight if the bolt is usually enough for the action to close and bolt handle to drop.

Indeed they do - the bolt should easily slide right into battery. If the rifle doesn't do this, it's likely the bolt should be fully stripped down & all old oil/grease completely cleaned.
These bolts are so easy to fully strip down & reassemble. It can be done in a couple of minutes
Cheers

 

[Scipio]

Indeed they do - the bolt should easily slide right into battery. If the rifle doesn't do this, it's likely the bolt should be fully stripped down & all old oil/grease completely cleaned.
These bolts are so easy to fully strip down & reassemble. It can be done in a couple of minutes
Cheers

Once more than you for a most useful contribution, @deeangeo . This is exactly the sort of video that i needed . Just by looking at the video, his bolt seems to open under less pressure than mine, so i shall have to disseamble my bolt and clean it. Hopefully this will do the trick!

 

[Apthorpe]

Once more than you for a most useful contribution, @deeangeo . This is exactly the sort of video that i needed . Just by looking at the video, his bolt seems to open under less pressure than mine, so i shall have to disseamble my bolt and clean it. Hopefully this will do the trick!

Note that (I think) he is opening a cocked bolt, not a fired, uncocked bolt, so there shouldn't be much resistance.

 

[Scipio]

Just a quick update, - i'm back home with my rifles now, and i just had the MS out to check out some of the advice given here.
I havnt cleaned the bolt yet, but i did make an observation:

-The resistance when operating the bolt, from an uncocked status, only starts to really mount at the final maybe 20 percent of opening, is this normal?
And again upon closing it's only the initial 20 percent of the closing of the now cocked firing pin and bolt which provides a lot of resistance.
All of this was done on an empty chamber.

 

[Klenchblaize]

What loads have you been using and has it been like this from day 1 of acquisition?

K

 

[Scipio]

What loads have you been using and has it been like this from day 1 of acquisition?

K

Hello mate Well just quite regular factory ones i believe, - mainly the 165 grn (i think they were) sp geco leads, and some 158 grn Prvi Partizan Groms (lead too). And i havnt been going crazy, firing super quick strings of shots at the range either.
Did it always feel like this? hm, yes and no, i think it always felt pretty hard to open, but not enough to make me react, like i am doing now, but i do not remember it feeling hard to close, like it does now.
Could it be dirt or something in the area of where the bolt lugs, locks in? because it seems to be in the final/opening stage of rotating bolt handle it feels more tough than what it perhaps should.

 

[Scipio]

hmmm, i just watched this video: and now i am wondering if it could it be the action screw being overly tight? Because I did have it serviced at an italian (reknowned) gunsmith not that long ago, and perhaps the result is a little overly tight action screw. It could happen, i reckon. But how tight should an action screw on a MS from the late 60ies be?

At the moment my plans is to: First see if it's the action screw, if it's not then disassmble and clean bolt and locking lugs, then see if that cures it. If not find alternative solution.

 

[Scipio]

ok, a little more precision to yesterdays post, - as i described yesterday, the last 20% or so of opening the bolt to cock it and the ditto first 20% of closing are very stiff, however, when running the bolt already cocked the entire procedure of opening is actually fairly smooth, whilst the intial fase of closening remains very stiff.