Non fragmenting, so FMJ and not soft point/dumdum.
New Rifle, New Calibre (?) for the UK Military - Project Grayburn SA80 Replacement
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I am aware of that and I thought there was something else - but AI seems to concur with @GBR66 so I cant think where I got that from hmmmm...
Otherwise you'd have to really careful not to hit anyone with a .50 Cal!!
No it is "uneccesary suffering" from the old Hague Regulations. So not expanding. Steel core bullets have been used widely in 9mm (as cheaper than lead) and in 7.92mm German SmK ball and .303 W II Z headstamped to defeat lightly armoured vehicles such as early half tracks or reconnaisance type armoured cars.
6.5cm was specifically designed to defeat body armour and fit in AR platform chambers. Does the military really need to spend millions making up new numbers?
I picked up (literally) dozens of rifles in many different calibers and stuck to 7.62 (FNc). Only body armour then was African bush.
I picked up (literally) dozens of rifles in many different calibers and stuck to 7.62 (FNc). Only body armour then was African bush.
That was the Remington SPC I think, standard pressure short case, the SIG Fury is high pressure, longer case, I think the US rifle is the M7. Seems like with SA80 they had lots of early production issues but have updated it, will apparently penetrate typical light armoured vehicles at c.150m.
Johnnywood
Well-Known Member
As I understand, large shipments of used shotguns are being shipped to Ukraine, because that’s the infantry man’s weapon of choice against drones..
TheEngineer
Well-Known Member
Serbia has adopted the 6.5 Grendel (or a very similar cartridge, it's hard to determine) for their AK. I'm not an expert by any means but it seems like an excellent choice.
1. It's designed to fit in standard AR actions and standard STANAG mags (with slightly reduced capacity, maybe 26 rounds instead of 30)
2. Has higher muzzle energy than the 5.56 and retains that muzzle energy better at range due to its high BC
3. Still much smaller than 7.62 NATO or the .277/6.8. Sig Fury (carry more ammo)
4. From vids on YouTube seems to be similar to 5.56 in terms of full auto controllability, still very important as anyone who has seen Ukraine trench fighting footage will know
The .277 is getting a lot of flack from some of the guys who have handled it. The fact that its using a 2 piece case adds another manufacturing step and more expense for what seems like very little gain in lethality when compared to 7.62. Plus the 80,000 PSI chamber pressure must mean barrel life is in the hundreds of rounds instead of thousands (would love if anyone here had any insight/ input about this). All well and good if you have unlimited money and logistics capabilities like the US but seems a bit impractical for the rest of NATO. Plus full auto depletes the 20 shot mag quickly and with a lot of recoil, much the same problem the M14 had.
It just seems like an unnecessarily complex cartridge to solve a problem from the last war, with fighters in Afghanistan often being out of range of the short barreled 5.56 M4 carbine. If the UK does adopt a new rifle, I hope they do so with conflict in Europe in mind. Of course that will all depend on NATO, with ease/cost of manufacture and feasibility of modifying/ issuing rifles in a new cartridge to be the greatest considerations. In all likelihood, I see 5.56 sticking around a while longer.
1. It's designed to fit in standard AR actions and standard STANAG mags (with slightly reduced capacity, maybe 26 rounds instead of 30)
2. Has higher muzzle energy than the 5.56 and retains that muzzle energy better at range due to its high BC
3. Still much smaller than 7.62 NATO or the .277/6.8. Sig Fury (carry more ammo)
4. From vids on YouTube seems to be similar to 5.56 in terms of full auto controllability, still very important as anyone who has seen Ukraine trench fighting footage will know
The .277 is getting a lot of flack from some of the guys who have handled it. The fact that its using a 2 piece case adds another manufacturing step and more expense for what seems like very little gain in lethality when compared to 7.62. Plus the 80,000 PSI chamber pressure must mean barrel life is in the hundreds of rounds instead of thousands (would love if anyone here had any insight/ input about this). All well and good if you have unlimited money and logistics capabilities like the US but seems a bit impractical for the rest of NATO. Plus full auto depletes the 20 shot mag quickly and with a lot of recoil, much the same problem the M14 had.
It just seems like an unnecessarily complex cartridge to solve a problem from the last war, with fighters in Afghanistan often being out of range of the short barreled 5.56 M4 carbine. If the UK does adopt a new rifle, I hope they do so with conflict in Europe in mind. Of course that will all depend on NATO, with ease/cost of manufacture and feasibility of modifying/ issuing rifles in a new cartridge to be the greatest considerations. In all likelihood, I see 5.56 sticking around a while longer.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
New British Military rifle?
A lot of thought needs to be given ti this and exactly what is its role going to be for. Rather it being the perfect rifle for say the Rangers, Pathfinders, Paras or Marines it is probably better to consider it for vast bulk of the military who specialist infantry, but rather general everyday soldiers, sailors or airmen where the main weaponry will be much larger machinery. The need fir a rifle is then for defence / close quarters.
Lightweight, easy to shoot and maintain, lightweight ammo and cost point is probably far more important.
We do need to reestablish our industrial base. Indeed we have plenty of skills in precision machinery. No reason why the new should not be built in the UK and become basis for a good export product. By all means take inspiration from elsewhere but if we are serious about UK military independence and strength we need our own capability to manufacture on this little island. If we can produce jet engines, then we can produce rifles.
I would also look at a design where by a non auto / non self loading civilian version could easily be built and for this to be the basis of cadet and civilian target shooting under the NRA, with a view to pushing target shooting again so that wider marksmanship skills available if / when they are needed.
Cartridge needs to be easy to shoot, effective out to medium range and cheap. 5.56 in its current format probably meets this requirement for vast majority of rifle use.
Going back to specialist infantry units where they are fighting on foot and rifle is the principle weapon, those units with a range of weapons and cartridges so they have to hand the best tools for the job in hand. It’s probably a mix of weapons in any particular unit with individual soldiers and squads having specialist as well as generalist skills and weapons. This is where the more powerful 6.5, 277, 308 and longer range 338s etc all have their place alongside a basic 5.56.
A lot of thought needs to be given ti this and exactly what is its role going to be for. Rather it being the perfect rifle for say the Rangers, Pathfinders, Paras or Marines it is probably better to consider it for vast bulk of the military who specialist infantry, but rather general everyday soldiers, sailors or airmen where the main weaponry will be much larger machinery. The need fir a rifle is then for defence / close quarters.
Lightweight, easy to shoot and maintain, lightweight ammo and cost point is probably far more important.
We do need to reestablish our industrial base. Indeed we have plenty of skills in precision machinery. No reason why the new should not be built in the UK and become basis for a good export product. By all means take inspiration from elsewhere but if we are serious about UK military independence and strength we need our own capability to manufacture on this little island. If we can produce jet engines, then we can produce rifles.
I would also look at a design where by a non auto / non self loading civilian version could easily be built and for this to be the basis of cadet and civilian target shooting under the NRA, with a view to pushing target shooting again so that wider marksmanship skills available if / when they are needed.
Cartridge needs to be easy to shoot, effective out to medium range and cheap. 5.56 in its current format probably meets this requirement for vast majority of rifle use.
Going back to specialist infantry units where they are fighting on foot and rifle is the principle weapon, those units with a range of weapons and cartridges so they have to hand the best tools for the job in hand. It’s probably a mix of weapons in any particular unit with individual soldiers and squads having specialist as well as generalist skills and weapons. This is where the more powerful 6.5, 277, 308 and longer range 338s etc all have their place alongside a basic 5.56.
tackb
Well-Known Member
or , hear me out , repeal the semi auto ban and simplify everything !
agreed we civvies don't need full auto rifles but why not semi auto ? especially if this idiot government are expecting to send us to war (we not me i'm too old) surely we can either be trusted or not ?
The spec does specifically have versions for different functions like infantry, a shorter CQB, (I'm not sure why infantry wouldn't be doing the CQB but there you go), a compact rifle for mounted/drivers/pilots whatever and a couple of others
That does of course assume they buy the right amount and give them to the right people - is that where it all starts going sideways?
How big is your luggage
No they shouldn't need to but they definitely do need more and bigger ranges if they can't use 6.5CM and they want to move to something more powerful !
What no new Benelli M4 A.I. Drone Guardian shotguns ? What a great name - that will get a few people buying it on the name alone !
BTW - don't worry everyone that doesn't like computers its not that kind of AI its
- Advanced Impact (A.I.) System: This is where the "A.I." in the name comes from. It is a patented barrel and choke system with a much longer internal "forcing cone." This increases the muzzle velocity of the pellets and ensures a tighter, more uniform cloud (pattern) over longer distances.
Keep the SA80 A2 for the supporting arms and corps, as it's perfectly good for the job, just as the SLR was kept on in the same way when the SA80 was rolled out and then non-teeth arms were issued withe an iron sights SA80. Buy the now "fettled" M7 6.8mm from SiG for the infantry to upgrade the firepower of the remaining 12 infanteers......
tackb
Well-Known Member
When I went I had to buy another suitcase for my return !How big is your luggage
Fortunately bass pro and cabelas have them as well!
Just sorting the freebies, didn’t get much at bass pro as I can get it retailHow big is your luggage
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