I may have positioned myself behind a rifle in the wrong way until now

[randello88]

Hi everyone, just today i was looking at some scopes for my next rifle. I was struggling to understand why my khales 2-10x50 wouldn’t fit on a defiance ga hunter: the rear ring would touch the ocular bell because of the position of the rear rail being far back on these actions because of the wider ejection port vs my bergara b14). Looking at many pics online i found out something very interesting. I noticed that on average scopes in the pics where mounted 1 inch or so more toward the buttstock than the ones on my two main hunting rifles. I always got excellent accuracy out of them but sometimes i didn’t understand why i got flyers, especially after the first few shots at the range. This is something that i started noticing recently when i got into precision shooting for longer hunting shots (until now i limited myself to relatively close shots, with very good results).

So i started asking myself: it isn’t possible that so many people setup their rifles in a wrong way, there must be something wrong i am doing. I took my rifles and i made some tests. Either from prone and from sitting/standing, i found out that i was leaning my head more forward than it would be if i just leaned it on the stock, with neck muscles a little bit in tension, pushing the head more forward on the stock. If i just lean my head on the stock with no “extra” forward movement, the scope is a bit too far away, it’s a matter of less than one inch but it is noticeable.

It’s like if now i was using a more aggressive position on the rifle, like i was used to do using ARs and AKs in a more dynamic type of shooting. Neck muscles are definitely not totally relaxed.

The “close your eyes and you should have a clear sight picture”, something i always did when setting up my rifles, may have tricked me because, if i actually close my eyes and get to this more “aggressive” hold, i open them and the scope picture is perfect.
On the other hand, if i close the eyes and shoulder the rifle in a more relaxed way, without any neck muscles tension, i am far back of more or less 3/4 of an inch relatively to the scope ideal eyebox.

Just to add some info: i am 5’9” tall, i am young (for now!) and fit, i have a pretty standard LOP and my two scopes now are respectively 28.7 cm (11.3 inches) (khales helia 2-10x50i) and 27.5 cm (10.8 inches) (NF NX8 4-32x50 sfp) from the buttstock of my two rifles.

What do you think?

Pic of one of my rifles for reference (note that all my 2 RIfles have a 50mm bell scope with pretty low stock comb so the cheekweld has always been more of a chinweld, if that can help)

 

[VSS]

Interesting observations.
Sounds like you've got the eye relief wrong.

 

[randello88]

Interesting observations.
Sounds like you've got the eye relief wrong.

I mean, the eye relief from the scope was spot on, but only for the more forward leaning position. I have never shot with scope shadow or without a clear sight picture. Maybe i translated the correct eye relief more forward..
maybe using a more relaxed head position could increase my shooting. You know, where i live people at the range around you and other hunters are very poor shooters and they don’t even know what the word fundamentals mean so it is not easy to get a feedback

 

[Tim.243]

Hi everyone, just today i was looking at some scopes for my next rifle. I was struggling to understand why my khales 2-10x50 wouldn’t fit on a defiance ga hunter: the rear ring would touch the ocular bell because of the position of the rear rail being far back on these actions because of the wider ejection port vs my bergara b14). Looking at many pics online i found out something very interesting. I noticed that on average scopes in the pics where mounted 1 inch or so more toward the buttstock than the ones on my two main hunting rifles. I always got excellent accuracy out of them but sometimes i didn’t understand why i got flyers, especially after the first few shots at the range. This is something that i started noticing recently when i got into precision shooting for longer hunting shots (until now i limited myself to relatively close shots, with very good results).

So i started asking myself: it isn’t possible that so many people setup their rifles in a wrong way, there must be something wrong i am doing. I took my rifles and i made some tests. Either from prone and from sitting/standing, i found out that i was leaning my head more forward than it would be if i just leaned it on the stock, with neck muscles a little bit in tension, pushing the head more forward on the stock. If i just lean my head on the stock with no “extra” forward movement, the scope is a bit too far away, it’s a matter of less than one inch but it is noticeable.

It’s like if now i was using a more aggressive position on the rifle, like i was used to do using ARs and AKs in a more dynamic type of shooting. Neck muscles are definitely not totally relaxed.

The “close your eyes and you should have a clear sight picture”, something i always did when setting up my rifles, may have tricked me because, if i actually close my eyes and get to this more “aggressive” hold, i open them and the scope picture is perfect.
On the other hand, if i close the eyes and shoulder the rifle in a more relaxed way, without any neck muscles tension, i am far back of more or less 3/4 of an inch relatively to the scope ideal eyebox.

Just to add some info: i am 5’9” tall, i am young (for now!) and fit, i have a pretty standard LOP and my two scopes now are respectively 28.7 cm (11.3 inches) (khales helia 2-10x50i) and 27.5 cm (10.8 inches) (NF NX8 4-32x50 sfp) from the buttstock of my two rifles.

What do you think?

Pic of one of my rifles for reference (note that all my 2 RIfles have a 50mm bell scope with pretty low stock comb so the cheekweld has always been more of a chinweld, if that can help)

I think you are reading into it more than you need, I shoot RH rifles being L/H (since I was 14 a long time ago) also shot guns with a consistent mount needed quickly each time as your single shot with a rifle you are not judging lead distance and drop like with a shotgun.
I have packed my stocks to acquire the centre line of the scope so making the cheek weld bob on. Just gaffa tape and packing as I want/need the C/L right and don't worry what it looks like.

EDIT, I remember you with the long range shooting some time back 10 pages

 

[VSS]

I mean, the eye relief from the scope was spot on, but only for the more forward leaning position. I have never shot with scope shadow or without a clear sight picture. Maybe i translated the correct eye relief more forward..
maybe using a more relaxed head position could increase my shooting. You know, where i live people at the range around you and other hunters are very poor shooters and they don’t even know what the word fundamentals mean so it is not easy to get a feedback

It wasn't spot on if you were having to move your head into an awkward position to get the best sight picture.

 

[20-250]

What do you think?

That you have way too much spare time

 

[Heym SR20]

A lot does depend on how you shoot rifles and in particular control the recoil. Also depends hugely on whether you shoot prone or standing up.

British and American shooters tend to use a firm cheek weld. Germans tend to rest the side of their chin on the stock and shoot with a much more upright style - hence traditional German guns have a lot more drop in the stock.

Personally I think many mount scopes with ridiculously large objective lense far far to high. They need lots of additional cheek piece extensions etc. Personally a x42mm gives all the light you need for the vast majority of hunting and a rifle with a smaller scope is much better balanced. And mount the scope as low as possible.

Length of pull is also critical.

My suggestion is find a good experienced coach.

 

[Cottis]

You are right to question how you hold the rifle, how you allow your cheek to fall on to the stock and therefore how the natural level of your eye falls on the ocular and whether any movement forward or backward is needed to realise proper eye relief in order to have the correct view through the scope.

Considerations should include how you mostly shoot the rifle. There might be compromises that needed to be made. For example, shooting off hand or from sticks, you will likely have a slightly different mount to how you might shoot from the prone.

I like to set my rifles up around me and how I will shoot them. So for a stalking rifle where I am, 95%+ of the time, shooting from sticks which is effectively the same as shooting off hand from the standing position, I will shoulder the rifle without the scope in the rings and then put the scope in lower rings and move it to my eye and not the other way round. Should my eye not naturally fall on the ocular, then the comb is either too high or more likely, some sort of addition to the stock will need to be made to allow my cheek and therefore eye, to be raised to naturally fall on the ocular when the rifle is mounted. On the contrary, for rifles I shoot more from the prone, I will get on the deck and put the rifle in my shoulder in a way that is as comfortable and stress free as possible and then set up the scope and rifle to marry up to that position rather than vice versa.

Shooting with as little tension in your neck and shoulders as possible, is vital to accurate and consistent shooting.

Everyone is different but you should set the rifle up around how you want to hold the rifle in a way that minimises stress and tension on your body. Squishing your head, neck, shoulders and more to suit where the scope is will never realise optimum accuracy.

 

[randello88]

That you have way too much spare time

Actually i am a doctor, not so much so are time i assure you

 

[Tim.243]

Actually i am a doctor, not so much so are time i assure you

Had you said Medical Doctor that would explain a lot

 

[randello88]

You are right to question how you hold the rifle, how you allow your cheek to fall on to the stock and therefore how the natural level of your eye falls on the ocular and whether any movement forward or backward is needed to realise proper eye relief in order to have the correct view through the scope.

Considerations should include how you mostly shoot the rifle. There might be compromises that needed to be made. For example, shooting off hand or from sticks, you will likely have a slightly different mount to how you might shoot from the prone.

I like to set my rifles up around me and how I will shoot them. So for a stalking rifle where I am, 95%+ of the time, shooting from sticks which is effectively the same as shooting off hand from the standing position, I will shoulder the rifle without the scope in the rings and then put the scope in lower rings and move it to my eye and not the other way round. Should my eye not naturally fall on the ocular, then the comb is either too high or more likely, some sort of addition to the stock will need to be made to allow my cheek and therefore eye, to be raised to naturally fall on the ocular when the rifle is mounted. On the contrary, for rifles I shoot more from the prone, I will get on the deck and put the rifle in my shoulder in a way that is as comfortable and stress free as possible and then set up the scope and rifle to marry up to that position rather than vice versa.

Shooting with as little tension in your neck and shoulders as possible, is vital to accurate and consistent shooting.

Everyone is different but you should set the rifle up around how you want to hold the rifle in a way that minimises stress and tension on your body. Squishing your head, neck, shoulders and more to suit where the scope is will never realise optimum accuracy.

Thanks for the reply, I will definitely try holding the rifle less “aggressively” and with a more relaxed head position.
I want to explain myself well: i am not shouldering the rifle and then fighting moving my head to reach a good sight picture. The RIfles goes to my eye not the contrary, even as i have my scopes mounted now. I never adjust my head position to look for the scope. It is a matter of different hold of the rifle, in one case with the neck more extended forward, in the other case with the head more liked up with the body and just leaning the head on the stock without almost any neck muscles tension

Just out of curiosity: how far away from the buttpad your scopes are, measuring from the ocular bell? And how tall are you?

 

[randello88]

Had you said Medical Doctor that would explain a lot

Yeah, a doctor, a guy who works in the hospital and studied medicine. Is there a non medical doctor? Sorry i am not british XD

 

[Tim.243]

Yeah, a doctor, a guy who works in the hospital and studied medicine. Is there a non medical doctor? Sorry i am not british XD

Doctor of Science (scopes lol)

 

[randello88]

Doctor of Science (scopes lol)

In all the years i found out that there is nothing scientific about scopes, rifles or shooting in general. For most questions you get at least two different opinions ahah

 

[Twodogs]

A Doctor of Philosophy (PhD, DPhil; Latin: philosophiae doctor or doctor in philosophia)
A non-medical doctor. In Britain entitled to prefix their name by Doctor.

 

[Cottis]

Thanks for the reply, I will definitely try holding the rifle less “aggressively” and with a more relaxed head position.
I want to explain myself well: i am not shouldering the rifle and then fighting moving my head to reach a good sight picture. The RIfles goes to my eye not the contrary, even as i have my scopes mounted now. I never adjust my head position to look for the scope. It is a matter of different hold of the rifle, in one case with the neck more extended forward, in the other case with the head more liked up with the body and just leaning the head on the stock without almost any neck muscles tension

Just out of curiosity: how far away from the buttpad your scopes are, measuring from the ocular bell? And how tall are you?

I am 5'10"

Not sure it will help to say how far away my scope oculars are from butt pad as they all have different eye relief and anthropometrically, we are all built different and require different shape and size things. For example, I am a very average height but I have relatively long arms. I build golf clubs in my spare time and for me, I cut my own clubs shorter than the industry standard for best fit. Another person of the same height with shorter arms, would effectively need longer clubs, or else they would effectively have the clubhead further away from the ball. Small differences can create large problems.

 

[randello88]

I am 5'10"

Not sure it will help to say how far away my scope oculars are from butt pad as they all have different eye relief and anthropometrically, we are all built different and require different shape and size things. For example, I am a very average height but I have relatively long arms. I build golf clubs in my spare time and for me, I cut my own clubs shorter than the industry standard for best fit. Another person of the same height with shorter arms, would effectively need longer clubs, or else they would effectively have the clubhead further away from the ball. Small differences can create large problems.

You are right about individual differences in body shape and proportions and also about different eye relief (even if eye relief can be accounted for considering the specs of the manufacturer of the scope).
the owner of the LGS where i bought my first hunting rifle many years ago told me that 30 cm was the average so he set up my rifle like that
To me 30 cm seems a bit too much on average from the pics of the RIfles i saw online and also because this way most european scopes would not fit on ga hunter defiance actions

 

[Klenchblaize]

Germans tend to rest the side of their chin on the stock and shoot with a much more upright style - hence traditional German guns have a lot more drop in the stock.

Personally I think many mount scopes with ridiculously large objective lense far far to high. They need lots of additional cheek piece extensions etc.

Tell me about it!

Way too much drop for anything other than an ultra-low mounted 1" fixed mag scope of a c40mm objective.

K

 

[randello88]

Tell me about it!

Way too much drop for anything other than an ultra-low mounted 1" fixed mag scope of a c40mm objective.

K

Germans almost only hunt from blinds with a limited range, you could use iron sights in that situation

 

[SimpleSimon]

For most questions you get at least two different opinions ahah

And both of them are wrong!