Lead ban and .243?

[farrieral]

If nothing has changed in 80 years, I assume you’re still ranging your shots with a piece of string and posting this from a dial-up modem! (come on that's gold) but then we all know you enjoy one of the muzzle loader things, so perhaps I shouldn't assume anything ... I jest.

Physics hasn't changed, you’re right.... but our ability to engineer around it certainly has. 80 years ago, we didn't have CNC-machined monolithic copper solids that can handle those 'high stress' velocities without shedding 50% of their weight.

The 'free ticket'; it is just better metallurgy allowing us to use that energy for expansion rather than hoping our old faithful lead cup-and-core doesn't just pancake on a shoulder bone.

Trading weight for velocity only becomes a 'recipe for disaster' if your bullet construction is stuck in the past.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Copper works superbly well, its well proven. You hear little complaint from the forestry commission or contracting lads. And they are accounting for serious numbers. They crack on and shoot deer.

Copper works in CERTAIN circumstances.

Ironic that all ive heard from the few contractors/FC rangers I know despise copper bullets. They openly said they'd happily take a box of federal and use those instead. That wasn't a singular person, that was the entire FC rangers over a certain area (quite a large area too).

They raised valid questions and points about the safety anddeer running frequently. I'm sure this has been mentioned a number of times too.

Im not saying copper doesn't work, it does, providing x, y and z are good. If any of the below aren't, you've got deer running and running a long way.

The likes of the TLR WILL work but that's one manufacturer out of a lot

 

[Deermanagement]

"243 has always been a bit marginal for bigger deer"

Nothing marginal about a .243 for any of the UK deer. Toughest assumed is Sika and I've never had any issues with any of them including plenty of stags

 

[Chris Richardson]

Copper works superbly well, its well proven. You hear little complaint from the forestry commission or contracting lads. And they are accounting for serious numbers. They crack on and shoot deer.

As one said to me recently, he probably had as many issues with lead, but as lead was the "accepted standard" he thought little of it.

I do infact have access to an incinerator and dead bins for the foxes I shoot.

The 'hypocrisy' argument doesn't really hold water when you consider the end use. Whether or not lead affects the wider environment is one debate, but the immediate contamination of food is a simple fact.

It's multifaceted. Especially when looking at a dual purpose calibre like the .243.

That’s odd as o know a few FC lads myself and they don’t like copper one bit , maybe I’m speaking to the wrong ones

 

[Smellydog]

If nothing has changed in 80 years, I assume you’re still ranging your shots with a piece of string and posting this from a dial-up modem! (come on that's gold) but then we all know you enjoy one of the muzzle loader things, so perhaps I shouldn't assume anything ... I jest.

I have no idea what ranging has to do with this topic but not much has changed over 80 years no. Check out how old the 220 swift is and it's Lee Navy parent case.

our ability to engineer around it certainly has.

Absolute nonsense. All engineering relies on the laws of physics.
Please demonstrate an example?

The 'free ticket'; it is just better metallurgy allowing us to use that energy for expansion rather than hoping our old faithful lead cup-and-core doesn't just pancake on a shoulder bone.

More nonsense. I don't hope for anything from my bullets. I know they will work.

The deer act stipulates an expanding bullet should be used and that is exactly what happens from a bullet designed to expand and has done for decades.

better metallurgy

The alloys used in monolithic bullets are nothing new. Man has been messing with copper, zinc and tin for thousands of years.

Trading weight for velocity only becomes a 'recipe for disaster' if your bullet construction is stuck in the past.

Wrong again. Check out large and dangerous game bullets. Some used monolithic bullets over a century ago.
As for stuck in the past I recommend you check out the continued use of muzzleloaders for hunting used today in countries that aren't stupidly arrogant and observe their effectiveness instead of exposing your ignorance on the subject.

 

[jimmer.13]

Really?
Metallurgy. It's not really changed for shooting purposes in the last 80 years.
Manufacturing. Doesn't really change anything re terminal performance.
Powders. They aren't really any different than 80 years ago.
Ballistic knowledge. That's no different than about 100 years ago.
Better terminal performance and cleaner kills.
It's no different, we have had clean kills for decades.
As for trading weight for velocity, that is a recipe for disaster. The faster it goes the more stress is on the bullet.
There is no free ticket unless you can change the laws of physics of course.

Percy in modern times would be working for the BASC PR team.

 

[takbok]

The 243 was, and will continue to be, one of the most versatile cartridges for UK deerstalking. Lead free bullets aren't an issue at all for it.

I've been using lead free bullets very successfully in my lower powered 6x45 for years.

 

[J9Ned]

My .243 is my go to, but everyone's different I suppose. With an 80gn Nosler BT I'm getting 3300fps/1849 ft/lbs. At 200yards I consistently group at sub-inch, and practice to maintain that. I've accidently bought a batch of 1000. If I had that accident again I wouldn't know what to do with them after the ban.

 

[Freeforester]

.243 is my go to also, albeit 100grn at around a fairly sedate 2760fps, as has been the case for the last thirty years and more. The ‘rainbow’ arc is a bit relative IME, and predictable anyway, and at sensible ranges matters but little.

Busman’s holiday this morning, nobody to guide except for myself, and a lovely morning to be out. Most of the deer thought the same!

 

[muddy42]

Nothing marginal about a .243 for any of the UK deer. Toughest assumed is Sika and I've never had any issues with any of them including plenty of stags

Gosh I wrote that ages ago. I think I was referring to the fact that for large deer you'll want 100gr ammo which is at the edge of what a 1:10 barrel will stabilize and the edge of deer legal ballistics in shorter barrels, even with lead. Don't get me wrong I have several 243s, that luckily for me have always stabilized and been very accurate, its ideal for roe and in the right hands is fine for reds. However (and this is the really subjective part) if I was shooting with a beginner (likely to hit the middle of the deer) or as a dedicated red deer rifle, Id want a bit more margin for error.

 

[Ratel]

I’ve shot 100g out of PH’s just fine, but the 85g partition was by far the best performer of all bullets I’ve used in .243. I did move on from .243’s of course, as we all do when the pubes start to grow and we are able to handle recoil. Great calibre for youths and young women looking for a soft handling round that get put off by more mature calibres

You missed out the old men with Arthur Itis.
Young Whippersnapper.

 

[Ratel]

Scottish 100gr limit no longer exists. Been dropped to 80gr. For this very reason, I believe.

It never really existed for my last wife. She used 80 or was it 85 gr bullets in her 6mm Remington for a long while in Scotland. Not one Red stag or hind complained. She just kept her bullets in a 100gr box in case anybody asked the question.

 

[Deermanagement]

If I was shooting with a beginner (likely to hit the middle of the deer) or as a dedicated red deer rifle, Id want a bit more margin for error.

Quite possibly, but you are also balancing the ability to hit the target easier with a small or large calibre rifle. As long as it’s a moderated rifle, under these circumstances I’d prefer the larger calibre for less experienced stalkers

I only picked up on your comment and maybe it’s referred to elsewhere in the thread, but I was talking lead, and I’ll not be chest shooting any Sika with non lead through my 1:10 barrel. When I have to finish with the 95g BT’s for everything except Sika, hinds or stags, and fallow bucks/red stags(100g partitions), I’ll re-barrel to 6.5 Cr with or what will likely be a super calibre, 22 Cr in lead.

 

[Heym SR20]

I don’t really think there is such a thing as “margin for error. If you watch videos of bullets going into ballistic gel or clay and compare the size of temporary wound cavity of one calibre bullet to the next with similar construction of bullets, there is really not much difference between a 243 and a 30-06. Bullet construction has a much bigger effect. Yes a 150gn .308 calibre bullet will produce a larger wound channel than a 243, but not by than inch or two in diameter. If you miss the kill zone that deer is going to be wounded no matter what cartridge / bullet it has been shot with.

A 243, with a properly constructed bullet that will penetrate through the shoulders of the intended quarry will kill a deer just as dead and as quickly dead as any other cartridge.

A 243 got a poor reputation as many used totally inappropriate ammunition. Either varmint type bullets designed for foxes etc with a tiny entry hole and no exit, but would completely fragment within a couple of inches. These work perfectly well as intended on Foxes, Jackals etc but shoot at shoulder of deer, they don’t penetrate into the vitals, or with soft cup and core bullets designed for smaller deer, but being used on bigger stuff.

The 243 is a high velocity cartridge, compared 308 etc. a cup and core works well enough at 308 velocities, but will tend to blow up fast at 243 velocities.

But use a good premium bullet in the 243 - a partition, bonded core, or these days a monolithic bullet in the 80 to 100gn size, a 243 is perfectly capable of cleanly killing any UK deer that walks. You might have to be a little patient and wait a good presentation of the deer - you wont get away with a texas heart shot - but put the bullet in the right place abd deer is dead.

And 243s are a delight to shoot.

 

[Brighty3006]

I don’t really think there is such a thing as “margin for error. If you watch videos of bullets going into ballistic gel or clay and compare the size of temporary wound cavity of one calibre bullet to the next with similar construction of bullets, there is really not much difference between a 243 and a 30-06. Bullet construction has a much bigger effect. Yes a 150gn .308 calibre bullet will produce a larger wound channel than a 243, but not by than inch or two in diameter. If you miss the kill zone that deer is going to be wounded no matter what cartridge / bullet it has been shot with.

A 243, with a properly constructed bullet that will penetrate through the shoulders of the intended quarry will kill a deer just as dead and as quickly dead as any other cartridge.

A 243 got a poor reputation as many used totally inappropriate ammunition. Either varmint type bullets designed for foxes etc with a tiny entry hole and no exit, but would completely fragment within a couple of inches. These work perfectly well as intended on Foxes, Jackals etc but shoot at shoulder of deer, they don’t penetrate into the vitals, or with soft cup and core bullets designed for smaller deer, but being used on bigger stuff.

The 243 is a high velocity cartridge, compared 308 etc. a cup and core works well enough at 308 velocities, but will tend to blow up fast at 243 velocities.

But use a good premium bullet in the 243 - a partition, bonded core, or these days a monolithic bullet in the 80 to 100gn size, a 243 is perfectly capable of cleanly killing any UK deer that walks. You might have to be a little patient and wait a good presentation of the deer - you wont get away with a texas heart shot - but put the bullet in the right place abd deer is dead.

And 243s are a delight to shoot.

At last another very sensible chap who knows just how good the.243 is. Ive shot lots of deer with 100 grain lead and also finding my80 grain Barnes ttsx homeloads are also extremely good at killing deer. Reds and Sika included

 

[Heym SR20]

At last another very sensible chap who knows just how good the.243 is. Ive shot lots of deer with 100 grain lead and also finding my80 grain Barnes ttsx homeloads are also extremely good at killing deer. Reds and Sika included

FFS don't say that - the new owners of the SD want lots of debate going on, and Barnes TTSX won't kill, gralloch, drag to the larder, make you tea and then deliver and get you £5 per kg in skin from the dealer. Many on here are under the illusion that other cartridges using lead bullets achieve this, expescially when you use the Texas heart shot.

 

[Mike1979]

FFS don't say that - the new owners of the SD want lots of debate going on, and Barnes TTSX won't kill, gralloch, drag to the larder, make you tea and then deliver and get you £5 per kg in skin from the dealer. Many on here are under the illusion that other cartridges using lead bullets achieve this, expescially when you use the Texas heart shot.

WTF..... I am not happy...looks like I will have to continue to drag stuff about ... was really hoping to find a bullet that did all the hard work for me...but not sure if the bullet would have to have "trained hunter status"

 

[crimson]

At last another very sensible chap who knows just how good the.243 is. Ive shot lots of deer with 100 grain lead and also finding my80 grain Barnes ttsx homeloads are also extremely good at killing deer. Reds and Sika included

TTSX in my .243 has performed faultlessly

At last another very sensible chap who knows just how good the.243 is. Ive shot lots of deer with 100 grain lead and also finding my80 grain Barnes ttsx homeloads are also extremely good at killing deer. Reds and Sika included

 

[Alhamander]

TTSX in my .243 has performed faultlessly

At last another very sensible chap who knows just how good the.243 is. Ive shot lots of deer with 100 grain lead and also finding my80 grain Barnes ttsx homeloads are also extremely good at killing deer. Reds and Sika included

I just bought some Fox 100g copper for my .243. Intrigued to find out how they shoot. The 80g copper has worked fine on reds & foxes in .243.

 

[Heym SR20]

I just bought some Fox 100g copper for my .243. Intrigued to find out how they shoot. The 80g copper has worked fine on reds & foxes in .243.

It will really depend on the rifle, barrel twist and velocity it achieves. My Heym has a metric twist rate that is a bit slower than 1 in 10” and must admit I struggled to get decent groups. But other rifles with traditional 1 in 10” seem to shoot them well.

If you do want to shoot a copper bullet in 243 the 100gn Bushmaster by Peregrine works very well. It is a flat nosed bullet with aerodynamics of a landrover, but up to 150 yards it hardly matters. It’s what I would use if tackling bigger deer in woodland.