Lead ban date announced

I don't know about that. If Europe and the USA don't take up copper it won't ever get very cheap or have the variety that lead currently does.. I would think anyway.
Plenty of European countries and indeed states / departments have already gone lead free for all ammunition. EU is going lead free for Shotguns.

In the US, waterfowl has been lead free for decades. Many states, especially California have been lead free for all hunting for a long while. In many others there are plenty of areas - state lands, federal lands, wildlife refuges etc where lead free is a mandatory requirement.

In the private sector there are big restrictions on lead ending up in food products or in the environment. Look at certification standards etc.

One of the farms I occasionally shoot over grows a lot of vegetables. If any shot (lead or steel) is found in a load of vegetables the supermarket rejects the whole load (and the farmer has to pay for disposal). Second time, contract is cancelled. Thus no shooting anywhere near the vegetables.

Timber going for FSC standards has to be grown to their standards which includes not using many harmful chemicals and practices. This includes not using lead ammunition.
 
Yes but would I want to be in the EU because it lets us continue to use lead bullets? No.
Would I want a Rupert Lowe to have a majority in Parliament because he's supposedly said he'd get this lead ban reversed? No.

So whilst folk might wish this, or wish that, because of a single policy issue that aligns with their hopes it can be unwise to then embrace the whole of the rest of what X or Y will give you.

It's like those Germans voting for Hitler because they liked that he said he'd get the trains to run on time. There's more to be considered of what else comes with that single issue.
I was alluding to the fact that the UK is currently ploughing a lone furrow on this issue, the EU’s ardour to pursue a ban has cooled considerably in the last 12 - 15 months. Several countries have indicated that they have no intention of complying with the directive and now the bullet makers are saying that they can produce copper or lead projectiles but not both. Which is a security issue
 
Plenty of European countries and indeed states / departments have already gone lead free for all ammunition. EU is going lead free for Shotguns.

In the US, waterfowl has been lead free for decades. Many states, especially California have been lead free for all hunting for a long while. In many others there are plenty of areas - state lands, federal lands, wildlife refuges etc where lead free is a mandatory requirement.

In the private sector there are big restrictions on lead ending up in food products or in the environment. Look at certification standards etc.

One of the farms I occasionally shoot over grows a lot of vegetables. If any shot (lead or steel) is found in a load of vegetables the supermarket rejects the whole load (and the farmer has to pay for disposal). Second time, contract is cancelled. Thus no shooting anywhere near the vegetables.

Timber going for FSC standards has to be grown to their standards which includes not using many harmful chemicals and practices. This includes not using lead ammunition.
Interesting thanks.
My concern is, as a small market, the UK won't be well supplied in copper ammo.
 
Manufacturing of Copper Bullets.

Two main methods. Stamping and Swaging - using large stamping machines with dies, a piece of copper is bashed into the shape of a bullet over several steps. This is how the vast majority of bullets ate produced on an industrial scale. With traditional bullets, part of the process includes feeding in a lead wire and then swaging the jacket around the core.

This is a capital intensive process with very expensive dies being made for each bullet type, but these last for a few million bullets produced.

This is how military, and most cheap ammunition is produced.

Expensive to set up, but low cost per unit produced, especially once all the assets have written right down.

Very capital intensive to set up a new production run, or to introduce a new shape or design of bullet. And it probably takes a few days to switch from one product to another when running a production run.

2) small scale machining. Much easier to do with a monolithic bullet than a two dissimilar cored bullet, but you start with a rod of copper or brass (an alloy of Copper with Zinc), chuck it in a lathe and turn up a bullet. It is no more or less difficult than mass producing other parts such as a bolt. With a simple copying jig on a basic lathe and a machinest to run it, you can make very good bullets. Cost of labour would be high though per unit.

Most monolithic bullet manufacturers will use an automatic CNC controlled lathe. Such machines are readily available and not a huge cost. Bullets are designed on CAD, translated into a CNC File and loaded into the system. It takes very little time to switch production across from say a 130gn 7mm bullet to a 120gn 6.5mm bullet.

But most of production has been to date relatively small scale production in small designer owned businesses with all the design work being recouped in the first years of production.

When you buy a cup and core bullet, it was designed 60 years ago, probably made on machinery 60 plus years old and fully depreciated.

When you buy a copper bullet you are still paying for all the design work and testing that went into the bullet. You will also be paying for CNC tooling as this will yet to be depreciated.

As always as volumes go up, prices will come down. At the retail end, RFDs are currently having to carry all types of ammunition, so you are paying for cost of such ammo sitting in the warehouse and on dealers shelves.

The UK is not a large market, but it’s a significant market for ammunition. At present copper is a premium product and price accordingly.

Now that are definitive dates and certainty, manufacturers and suppliers can start investing for the future demand.

Some will stick their heads in the sand, whinge hugely and go out of business.

Others will make good decisions and see the opportunity.
 
I was alluding to the fact that the UK is currently ploughing a lone furrow on this issue, the EU’s ardour to pursue a ban has cooled considerably in the last 12 - 15 months. Several countries have indicated that they have no intention of complying with the directive and now the bullet makers are saying that they can produce copper or lead projectiles but not both. Which is a security issue
The recent cooling of EU, has been pushback by a few countries on the use of lead bullets, citing military and police use in particular. However EU is still going forward with a complete ban on lead shot used in shotguns for all hunting.

There is already an EU wide regulation on use of lead shot over wetlands.

With the EU Commission there has always been a requirement for all member states to agree to particular new legislation. It’s not a majority, it’s an all requirement. All have agreed to lead shot ban, some have not agreed to lead bullet ban.

As with all things EU it is down to individual member states to enforce EU directives and regulations.
 
Fox and Barnes are good bullets that work, the isn’t a uk made copper bullet as of yet made that I would touch with next doors thrupenny bits!

I’ve seen all the UK variations having clients and as of yet, nearly all carcasses look like they’ve been fed a hand grenade
 
Ironic coming from someone who loves telling everyone else what to do.
I voice my opinion as does everyone on this forum, I’ve never forced anyone to read or take notice of my mindless ramblings, I’ve shot copper longer than most, I remember years ago when I first posted my findings about copper and everybody thought I was an absolute lunatic paying over a £1per round in fact it was nearler £1.50 and like I said is nearly 15 years ago when you can make a bullet for pennies.

Now the boot is on the other foot, you’re all being forced to shoot copper for me, It’s easy I did the hard work years ago, doesn’t rub me up or down if you want to listen or not, but I’ll willingly help those who want it.
 
I voice my opinion as does everyone on this forum, I’ve never forced anyone to read or take notice of my mindless ramblings, I’ve shot copper longer than most, I remember years ago when I first posted my findings about copper and everybody thought I was an absolute lunatic paying over a £1per round in fact it was nearler £1.50 and like I said is nearly 15 years ago when you can make a bullet for pennies.

Now the boot is on the other foot, you’re all being forced to shoot copper for me, It’s easy I did the hard work years ago, doesn’t rub me up or down if you want to listen or not, but I’ll willingly help those who want it.
Welcome to SD, watch those Gaymoor owners as they will try and convert you (a bit like the (JW's) coming down the drive!
Just remember this little rhyme and you will be Ok.
Roses are Red Violets are Blue Copper and GayMoor is not really for you. :tiphat:
 
Copper bullets will always be expensive as copper is a much more expensive metal

yesterdays closing prices on the london metal exchange in $

lead 1962.50
copper 13057.50

so thats 665% more than for lead.

Then copper given its much wider use to humanity especially in electrical and electronics will very likely continue to rise in price as demand increases.

To think copper bullets will become less expensive is very optimistic.
 
I voice my opinion as does everyone on this forum, I’ve never forced anyone to read or take notice of my mindless ramblings, I’ve shot copper longer than most, I remember years ago when I first posted my findings about copper and everybody thought I was an absolute lunatic paying over a £1per round in fact it was nearler £1.50 and like I said is nearly 15 years ago when you can make a bullet for pennies.

Now the boot is on the other foot, you’re all being forced to shoot copper for me, It’s easy I did the hard work years ago, doesn’t rub me up or down if you want to listen or not, but I’ll willingly help those who want it.
I’m really not fussed either way. I have perfectly effective loads in copper or lead for everything I shoot.

Been obvious for years it was going to end up this way.
 
Welcome to SD, watch those Gaymoor owners as they will try and convert you (a bit like the (JW's) coming down the drive!
Just remember this little rhyme and you will be Ok.
Roses are Red Violets are Blue Copper and GayMoor is not really for you. :tiphat:
Change the record Timmy :lol:

Ever tried copper? We know you have never used a Creedmoor so just seeing if it is full or half ignorance :)

And if you want to quote me as saying "I wont comment on your posts" that boat has sailed as I feel your ignorance on certain things is becoming a tad pathetic 👍
 
From a "newbie" that plans on applying here within this year and who Is obviously going too be in the market for a rifle that shoots lead free well, Its slightly concerning because I already know there's going too be a surge of rifles on the market that are being sold in preparation for the ban that likely wont have an ounce of copper shot through them.

The joys of before with lead being the n1 If it was a decently well used rifle that information on what It shoots well would likely be told in passing, but now for the most part that information is useless If Its .243+

Obviously a few mentions here of copper rounds being anything from £60-£120 a box, concerning stuff.
An understanding of twist rate and bullets available in that calibre will tell you if it will work or not. And if you’re not sure you can always ask on here.

.243 is possibly the only iffy one if you’re in Scotland, so buy a 6.5 or bigger and you’ll have no issues.

With the costs of copper ammo reloading is a sensible option.
 
Copper bullets will always be expensive as copper is a much more expensive metal

yesterdays closing prices on the london metal exchange in $

lead 1962.50
copper 13057.50

so thats 665% more than for lead.

Then copper given its much wider use to humanity especially in electrical and electronics will very likely continue to rise in price as demand increases.

To think copper bullets will become less expensive is very optimistic.
Assuming those prices are per tonne,

Lets not forget that lead bullets are 20 to 40% by weight copper, depending upon type of bullet construction.

But take a 10 gram copper bullet, raw material cost is $0.13 per bullet. Given the waste etc let’s call it $0.20 per bullet.

Even a traditional bullet is using $0.05 worth of copper.
 
Fox and Barnes are good bullets that work, the isn’t a uk made copper bullet as of yet made that I would touch with next doors thrupenny bits!

I’ve seen all the UK variations having clients and as of yet, nearly all carcasses look like they’ve been fed a hand grenade
But UK deer are really tough and you need all the fragmentation so that they die quickly when you put a bullet through the soft parts close to the diaphragm. :)
 
Assuming those prices are per tonne,

Lets not forget that lead bullets are 20 to 40% by weight copper, depending upon type of bullet construction.

But take a 10 gram copper bullet, raw material cost is $0.13 per bullet. Given the waste etc let’s call it $0.20 per bullet.

Even a traditional bullet is using $0.05 worth of copper.
except your missing an important point the raw copper needs extruding into rod or rolling into sheets before it can be used to make bullets. These cost given the higher energy needs when processing copper will further push the price up.
Then the manufacture process will be slower to make solid copper bullets.

by your argument we should be buying copper bullets for $0.13 each now.

However the significant difference between the price of lead and copper will always remain and hence always make a copper bullet more expensive. As will substituting Tin for lead.
 
except your missing an important point the raw copper needs extruding into rod or rolling into sheets before it can be used to make bullets. These cost given the higher energy needs when processing copper will further push the price up.
Then the manufacture process will be slower to make solid copper bullets.

by your argument we should be buying copper bullets for $0.13 each now.

However the significant difference between the price of lead and copper will always remain and hence always make a copper bullet more expensive. As will substituting Tin for lead.
Mmmm. No. You are already having to swage copper sheet into copper cups to take a lead core for a lead bullet.

If you are swaging / stamping solid copper bullets there are many fewer processes than in producing a lead cored bullet. Hence less machine time and cheaper manufacturing.

Most current production of copper bullets is on CNC milling - less capex cost, but slower production rates.

Once manufacturing is switched to high volume stamping and swaging production costs will come down.

Copper ammunition is sold at a premium. Again as volumes go up there will be much competition and thus prices will come down.

Regardless, the actual cost of ammunition is a very small part of the cost of stalking.

Most lead ammo is £30 to £40 a box of 20. Copper is £50 to £70 a box for same number.

Last weekend we shot 8 deer, that was 8 bullets used. We drove 150 miles and spent £40 each on b’fast on way up and a good meal on way back.

And colleagues running a few thousand pounds worth of electronic vision equipment.

So really the extra cost of copper bullets is pretty minimal in the great scheme of things.
 
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