Mallard Barn & Jelen. The Way forward?

[Sharpie]

Here is a suggestion:

The Stalking Directory could publish a code of practice that would cover what may and may not be expected of the services of a "professional" guide. Fundamental would be the need for full transparency on costs, and the probability of success. It would also detail the responsibilities of the client.

Trade members could decide whether or not to agree to the code of practice and make it clear in their posts.

If they did sign up to the code, then neither the trade member, nor the client, would be allowed to post on SD about a poor experience until an attempt at mediation had been undertaken. Any such posts would be pulled, and membership suspended.

Mediation could be attempted in a private forum. Mediators could be volunteers, chosen by the management of SD.

If mediation failed, then each party would be allowed to make one public post, to air their grievance and to give a right to reply.

No further posts would be allowed them. The thread would be left open for others to discuss, but limited to say 50 more posts.

If the trade member chose not to sign up to the code, then any comment should be allowed on here, as long as it isn't such as to expose the forum owners to legal action. Likewise any discussion about none-SD traders should be free.

Speaking as a paying client, I think that if somebody uses this forum to ply their trade and advertise their services, they should be prepared to see their offering discussed, even if it sometimes makes for uncomfortable reading.

Those who are caught out bigging-up their own services, or slagging off other traders by using false identities should be exposed and shamed, when discovered.

 

[User00003]

"How about no deer SEEN - no fee?"

you don't want the gamekeeper having his Mrs or the underkeeper's having the deer-suit on would you, what if a shot posed itself

 

[DazT]

"How about no deer SEEN - no fee?"

you don't want the gamekeeper having his Mrs or the underkeeper's having the deer-suit on would you, what if a shot posed itself

That would be their lookout

 

[jamross65]

Here are some for starters:

1. The client should see the details of the cull plan, by species, in order to get an idea of how many deer are shot over the course of the year
2. The client should see the stalk:shot:kill ratio, by species, in order to get an idea of the success rate per stalk per species
3. The client should see the complete charge structure - cost per outing, per beast (depending upon sex, antler measurement, etc), the cost per missed/wounded beast, any penalties for shooting the wrong sex/species, and the policy, if any, should no deer be seen/shot.
4. The policy should also include the cost for preparing heads, using the estate rifle/ammo, etc.
5. The client should see the stalking methods employed - e.g. Walk and stalk, high seat
6. The client should see any other T's and C's, e.g. the expected time per outing,reimbursement policy for cancelled/postponed outings, cost for witnessed stalks, etc.

willie_gunn

No's 1 & 2, that is nobody's business except the stalkers/landowners. And on top of that how many years back do you expect someone to go to give a reasonably accurate average? I would suggest it would have to be an absolute minimum if 5 but probably nearer 10 years to take in all the different weather conditions and other factors that may have occurred from one day to the next, and the conditions that could prevail on your particular visit throw all the projections up in the air anyway.

3,4,5 & 6, absolutely agree and if that information was not forthcoming then buyer beware...

I have mentioned the numbers of deer we expect to cull annually but last year was a very poor year all round our area and I also hear very similar elsewhere, primarily down to conditions.

I think that paying for stalking is a bit chuck and chance it unless you get a personal recomendation from someone but when you get a good result then it is worth sticking to that estate.

As I have said before, if one of my guests was unhappy, I would be unhappy and do whatever it took within reason to address that before they left.

 

[Irish Bob]

I am in full agreement with the penultimate paragraph. It should not be all about money and trophy hunting.

I am a paying recreational stalker both here and abroad.

For the last three years, I have been fortunate enough to meet a stalker that even the Good Lord himself, would be honoured to spend a day with. The introduction was obtained from a sister in law; I will be forever in her debt.

Prior to this relationship, it was a case of hit or miss, no pun intended, with regards to the quality of the day out. I dont judge a day on numbers shot, but rather on my relationship with the stalker, and observing him ply his trade, knowing his land and his beats. I have met some truly wonderful people, whilst stalking, but I would not want to go stalking with them again; rather I would prefer to go to the pub with them! Sad but true! I have spent fortunes on fruitless missions...............sometimes it was a case of lack of quality, other times, it was a lack of quantity, and sometimes it was a clear case of the stalker having over shot his land, such that that the only deer to pass through it was Rudolf on Christmas Night. Sometimes it was a case of just "no communication" Nevertheless I still enjoyed each stalk as the anticipation is what counts. In the cold light of day, perhaps several grand out of pocket, with little to show for it, reality sets in. There are only a few people that I trust. Fortunately on this forum, I have met the best part of a dozen or so people that I would stalk with any day of the week; and a few that I would never stalk with again............

I am not a trophy hunter. I love stalking (please, no high seats...not my thing!) However I always like to know the numbers; both quality and quantity. I go prepared, carrying sufficient cash to cover all possibilities. The idea of stalking and then being told that a particular beast is out of my price range does not sit well. If it`s a cull mission and medal head presents itself as the only shot of the day, I would like the stalker to tell me "he`s off the menu because he is too healthy as opposed to he`s available but at a trophy price" Some time ago, I was stalking stags and we came across an "absolute beast" on the hill. That is, he was 15 points plus with a neck as big as a bull but little else; in other words he was rutted out! The antlers were spectacular but try as I might to bid for the beast, the stalker said "no way". The stalk would have been easy and it would have been trophy hunting hunting as opposed to slective culling. This man I will stalk with as long as my legs will permit, the wife will allow me and the bank can afford it...............

In summary, there are a number of people on here offering stalking services. Do you research, tread carefully and enjoy the day out. And, be safe

 

[Conor1]

I dont think anybody wants to know your business plan nor your business model.

However, as a fee paying customer, I like to know some details, such as the deer population, the cull plan, numbers harvested so far and qualtity of the deer. This is basic information for me. I have no interests in your economics, though it wouldnt take a genius to work out the numbers. Moreover it also allows me to guage the ethics of the person that I am out with. I have paid for cull stalks and was told that a trophy would would be a high probability, only to experience, no deer of any quality. John from Yorkshire Roe stalking keeps detailed records and makes them available for public scutiny....................he would get my vote any day. I have not stalked with him personally, but I know plenty of people who have. His name alone speaks volumes.

 

[Conor1]

This is probably the wrong analogy as they are different pursuits altogether. Salmon fishing! Every lodge keeps detailed records....................................they speak volumes. For this reason, I will stick to trout and seatrout fishing, or Sewin, when in Wales!

 

[PointBlank]

I think I know a very good reason why some people don't want detailed records publicly available....

HMRC

 

[375 mag]

Here are some for starters:

1. The client should see the details of the cull plan, by species, in order to get an idea of how many deer are shot over the course of the year
2. The client should see the stalk:shot:kill ratio, by species, in order to get an idea of the success rate per stalk per species
3. The client should see the complete charge structure - cost per outing, per beast (depending upon sex, antler measurement, etc), the cost per missed/wounded beast, any penalties for shooting the wrong sex/species, and the policy, if any, should no deer be seen/shot.
4. The policy should also include the cost for preparing heads, using the estate rifle/ammo, etc.
5. The client should see the stalking methods employed - e.g. Walk and stalk, high seat
6. The client should see any other T's and C's, e.g. the expected time per outing,reimbursement policy for cancelled/postponed outings, cost for witnessed stalks, etc.

willie_gunn

+ 1 couldn't agree more, but to many guides have to much to hide - loose if you really new all that info !

 

[jamross65]

I think I know a very good reason why some people don't want detailed records publicly available....

HMRC

And lets not forget that privileged info also meaning some less ethical characters now having an idea about what your ground is worth and pitching up at the owners door behind your back!

I'll tell you what, you tell me what your projected work load is for the year as a joiner/plumber/whatever, and how much you expect to make over the year after your outlays, then I may employ you to put a cupboard in for me.....

How does this sound....

You turn up to stalk with me, and throughout your visit if you don't see enough sign of deer (even if the deer are not seen themselves) for you to realise there is a very good chance of success all things considered, then your next visit is half price, you think that is fair?

 

[PointBlank]

And lets not forget that privileged info also meaning some less ethical characters now having an idea about what your ground is worth and pitching up at the owners door behind your back!

I'll tell you what, you tell me what your projected work load is for the year as a joiner/plumber/whatever, and how much you expect to make over the year after your outlays, then I may employ you to put a cupboard in for me.....

How does this sound....

You turn up to stalk with me, and throughout your visit if you don't see enough sign of deer (even if the deer are not seen themselves) for you to realise there is a very good chance of success all things considered, then your next visit is half price, you think that is fair?

Yes but in a service industry such as a stalking guide you would expect there to be some sort of information available, a lawyer would have to state his success rate to attract new clients. Your analogy of the plumber/joiner isn't suitable because you end up with something tangible before paying your money.

What this thread concerns is that if a guide publishes a success rate then a client won't be upset if he has booked several stalks and they are of a similar ratio, if fact he should be pleased should he end up with a better ratio than advertised but the guide will have to be honest in his marketing.

 

[jamross65]

Yes but in a service industry such as a stalking guide you would expect there to be some sort of information available, a lawyer would have to state his success rate to attract new clients. Your analogy of the plumber/joiner isn't suitable because you end up with something tangible before paying your money.

What this thread concerns is that if a guide publishes a success rate then a client won't be upset if he has booked several stalks and they are of a similar ratio, if fact he should be pleased should he end up with a better ratio than advertised but the guide will have to be honest in his marketing.

So being guided about the countryside in pursuit of deer for 4 hrs is not tangible?

The point I was making is, that you employ a tradesman's services without actually knowing how good a job he is going to provide you with until it is done...

 

[PointBlank]

So being guided about the countryside in pursuit of deer for 4 hrs is not tangible?

The point I was making is, that you employ a tradesman's services without actually knowing how good a job he is going to provide you with until it is done...

It would be for me, I am happy with the privilege in walking in stunning scenery and I fully appreciate the value of the guides time. Some people however are expecting to bag a trophy though and unfortunately there seems to be some guides who are prepared to promise more than they can deliver from what I have read on here.

 

[User00001]

I have absolutely nothing to hide and frequently share information with others in the industry however the administration elelement of my job already takes up too much time and I cannot allow that to increase. Also, what is the point of publishing cull plans etc, I could sit with a glass of scotch and make them say whatever I think the customer wants to hear if I was that type of person? I feel that my price structure and terms and conditions are already very clear.

I am not currently a trade member as our stalking season is over to all intents and purposes until the auturm but, when the time comes, I will be giving very careful consideration before advertising on here again in the light of the recent complaints. I have been very lucky in that I have only had one bad experience with a group of guests in over 20 years of stalking and I do not wish to start now. Most of my guests come to me either as repeat customers or from the personal recomendation of previous guests or other Stalkers.

Whilst I am not moaning, and I cannot speak for the other trade advertisers, I have found that a large proportion of internet enquiries come to nothing and many are from psuedo-sporting agents trying to make a few quid of the back of our operation. Again I cannot afford to spend any more time dealing with these.

If anyone is interested, my sucess rate across all species of wild deer on the estate, upto mid-March, was 48% when stalking with guests, 72% when trusted and experienced friends went out and 84% when I stalk alone for culling purposes although this last figure may be slightly distorted downwards by the fact that I frequently spend less time on the ground when alone than I would with a guest but, equally, it may be distorted upwards by the fact that I target my culling activities to where and when I believe that I have a good chance of sucess. I have no idea how this compares to other estates or stalkers or how you would even begin to look for a fair way to compare given the high number of variable factors.

I don't think that a generic set of terms and conditions would really work but maybe a set of advice/questions that newcomers to stalking could ask might be useful.

As for the suggestion of a fixed pricing plan that trade members could agree to, surely that is called a cartel and is illegal?

Glyn.

 

[jamross65]

It would be for me, I am happy with the privilege in walking in stunning scenery and I fully appreciate the value of the guides time. Some people however are expecting to bag a trophy though and unfortunately there seems to be some guides who are prepared to promise more than they can deliver from what I have read on here.

Unscrupulous people in every single walk of life mate which is the sad bit about it.

Two experiences stick out in my mind of being ripped off (although perhaps too strong a wording). One was a walk-up at grouse with 3 mates. The guy charged us charged about £50 or so per gun and we were told to expect 20 birds or so and we had our own dogs. We shot one grouse, the only one seen. When we swung by the blokes house at the end of the day he was surprised we had had such a poor day and without another word handed us most of our money back! We had actually had a great day out working the dogs and having a laugh...

The second time when very early in my fishing days for salmon, booking a day on the upper Tweed in the springtime, having been told the beat produces good numbers of springers. Now anyone (including me now) who fishes Tweed will know that the majority if not all the spring fish run the Ettrick or other tributaries, all much further down river. They always have done, from well before that day 26 odd years ago, to the present time. That was a complete rip off and there was no refund...

 

[jamross65]

I have absolutely nothing to hide and frequently share information with others in the industry however the administration elelement of my job already takes up too much time and I cannot allow that to increase. Also, what is the point of publishing cull plans etc, I can sit with a glass of scotch and make them say whatever I think the customer wants to hear if I was that type of person? I feel that my price structure and terms and conditions are already very clear.

I am not currently a trade member as our stalking season is over to all intents and purposes until the auturm but, when the time comes, I will be giving very careful consideration before advertising on here again in the light of the recent complaints. I have been very lucky in that I have only had one bad experience with a group of guests in over 20 years of stalking and I do not wish to start now. Most of my guests come to me either as repeat customers or from the personal recomendation of previous guests or other Stalkers.

Whilst I am not moaning, and I cannot speak for the other trade advertisers, I have found that a large proportion of internet enquiries come to nothing and many are from psuedo-sporting agents trying to make a few quid of the back of our operation. Again I cannot afford to spend any more time dealing with these.

If anyone is interested, my sucess rate across all species of wild deer on the estate, upto mid-March, was 48% when stalking with guests, 72% when trusted and experienced went out and 84% when I stalk alone for culling purposes although this last figure may be slightly distorted downwards by the fact that I frequently spend less time on the ground when alone than I would with a guest but, equally, it may be distorted upwards by the fact that I target my culling activities to where and when I believe that I have a good chance of sucess. I have no idea how this compares to other estates or stalkers or how you would even begin to look for a fair way to compare given the high number of variable factors.

I don't think that a generic set of terms and conditions would really work but maybe a set of advice/questions that newcomers to stalking could ask might be useful.

As for the suggestion of a fixed pricing plan that trade members could agree to, surely that is called a cartel and is illegal?

Glyn.

Excellent post Glyn and informative.

 

[DazT]

How about a "feedback score" like ebay so that potential clients could see the comments left by previous clients?

 

[jamross65]

How about a "feedback score" like ebay so that potential clients could see the comments left by previous clients?

I'll tell you what, I will simply leave all the kind comments left on the SD by guests I had out last year and let any potential new guests make their own minds up if they should expect a good day if they decide to visit...

And I would guess that will be the attitude of any other trade member on here as well

 

[DazT]

Why not have a rating left by previous clients?
Are you worried??

 

[RPA 6MM BR]

Why not have a rating left by previous clients?
Are you worried??

Seems like a perfectly reasonable method to me. Let the clients provide the scoring.