AW's ..... Ever had a bad one???

[Jelendeer]

I feel that anybody that feels they have been charged exorbitantly or if the stalk was handled incorrectly should be reported to whoever the candidate is registered with, be it BASC or BDS.

Can't agree more Eddy, certainly the clients you witnessed for us went away very happy, and we received some glowing reports. Trouble is when the stalker first gets his DSCL2 portfolio, and his list of AW's, it can be quite a lottery for them.

It's OK phoning the guy up and asking him what he charges, but it's about much more than what he charges - it's about whether the guy knows what he's doing or not. I've seen AW's witnessing a gralloch when he himself didn't know how to do it!!!!!

Unfortunately the bad AW can give the impression of absolute professionalism on the phone, and by the time the unfortunate client finds out otherwise, he's already committed financially.

We really need to have some way whereby the likes of Eddy and many other top class AW's can be distinguished from the 'cowboys'.

Mike
(Director - Jelen Deer Services) Home | Jelen Deer Services

 

[Monkey Spanker]

We really need to have some way whereby the likes of Eddy and many other top class AW's can be distinguished from the 'cowboys'.

Mike
(Director - Jelen Deer Services) Home | Jelen Deer Services

Well that is easy....
get rid of any cowboys!
If you are not happy with an AW then report him.
It won't take many complaints about the same person before he is removed. However, reporting one for not signing off a PC that you thought was OK and he didn't might not get you very far!
MS

 

[willie_gunn]

Unfortunately the bad AW can give the impression of absolute professionalism on the phone, and by the time the unfortunate client finds out otherwise, he's already committed financially.

Mike

I agree, but is it really any different if you substitute the words "stalking guide", "rifle smith" or even "financial adviser" in the place of "AW"?

Unless some form of "kite mark" is invented, it will always be down to the person buying the service to do their due diligence and to check out the vendors reputation. And having a kite mark adds a whole new level of cost and administration.

I am not pretending that the current system is perfect, but we need to be careful what we wish for.

willie_gunn

 

[Jelendeer]

Well that is easy....
get rid of any cowboys!
If you are not happy with an AW then report him.
It won't take many complaints about the same person before he is removed. However, reporting one for not signing off a PC that you thought was OK and he didn't might not get you very far!
MS

Agreed. Problem is the 'damage' that the cowboys can cause before they are truly exposed, and how many times would they need to be reported before something is done? How are these reports investigated??

Mike

 

[l4oth]

I see no issue with AWs charging and the total cost of achieving level 2 will depend upon the circumstances.

It has been said earlier - ring the AWs, ask questions, shop around and talk to friends for recommendations.

As a final thought, people ask for / supply terms and conditions before stalking so why not for witnessing?

Perhaps the answer would be for DMQ to supply a standard set of terms and conditions to all AWs and they fill in whatever costs (if any) they charge?

In that way all would have an easy way to compare costs and it would ensure greater consistency.

 

[Wills]

Sounds like I have been fortunate so far..

 

[Mr Lewis]

There are quite a few bad eggs who are devaluing the system

I have heard of one AW who carries his rifle and shoots deer whilst 'witnessing, the candidate from 100-200m away

 

[widows son]

I see no issue with AWs charging and the total cost of achieving level 2 will depend upon the circumstances.

It has been said earlier - ring the AWs, ask questions, shop around and talk to friends for recommendations.

As a final thought, people ask for / supply terms and conditions before stalking so why not for witnessing?

Perhaps the answer would be for DMQ to supply a standard set of terms and conditions to all AWs and they fill in whatever costs (if any) they charge?

In that way all would have an easy way to compare costs and it would ensure greater consistency.

There is a guide already out for both AW and client to follow ,as for terms and conditions you cannot will Deer to be on the ground so theres your first problem.

If you charge someone and are "not" insured to carry out such work your screwed if something happens (been there so i don't require a lesson in law) as soon as you start to accept money your working for hire or reward simple .


The AW is the hardest bit out of the whole system, no matter what anyone says it is what goes on the portfolio everyone is judged on, AW as well he has to endure phone calls from the IV to answer, the whys and wherefores if there not happy with what they read .

 

[Willie]

Only been out with one AW - John Robson of YDS and he was BRILLIANT.

Top bloke, very knowledgable, great grounds, plenty of deer and good company - not forgetting Breeze.

Just lucky I guess,

Willie

 

[Sharpie]

Deleted, for now.

 

[sikadog]

One of the stalkers I AW'd for had been out 3 times with the same AW who had refused to sign off any of the stalk as they had not shot a deer.
My advice to him was to go back and get everything signed off bar the shot, gralloch, and larder work if the AW agreed it was done correctly.
I am still waiting to hear what happened.
I didn't have any problems will the AW that did my DS2 it was Mike at JELEN in the mists of time.

 

[prometheus]

Perhaps the site could hold a list of members that are AW's by region or county or perhaps even a DMQ AW logo or initial on their Avatar ?

 

[Jelendeer]

One of the stalkers I AW'd for had been out 3 times with the same AW who had refused to sign off any of the stalk as they had not shot a deer.
My advice to him was to go back and get everything signed off bar the shot, gralloch, and larder work if the AW agreed it was done correctly.
I am still waiting to hear what happened.
I didn't have any problems will the AW that did my DS2 it was Mike at JELEN in the mists of time.

Wow, you're giving your age away now Keith, that was indeed many moons ago!!! ................

One of the clients our AW witnessed had been out about 7 times with another AW, he was instructed by the estate that all deer MUST be chest shot, and he duly chest shot four deer.

The AW refused to sign him off on any of the grallochs because he couldn't find the mediastinal lymph glands, even though he pointed out to the AW that the shot had actually destroyed the Mediastinal.

The client found all the other lymph glands with ease, and he knew where the mediastinal should have been, but they were spread over the ground behind where the deer was stood. He even challenged the AW to find them (he refused).

How do people feel about that???? ...... Was the AW in order, or unreasonable?

Mike
(Director - Jelen Deer Services) Home | Jelen Deer Services

 

[W16OEN]

Not a bad one but I feel a little pedantic - I had the blue book so only needed one AW stalk. Stalked into a roe buck and dropped nicely to a boiler room shot. The gralloch went generally ok I thought but on completion I was informed everything fine but another gralloch was required. The reason was the shot had caused quite a mess in the chest cavity and sure enough it was difficult to clearly ID the mediastinal nodes on the top of the lungs and the lower bronchial lymph node. The bullet had clipped the heart and caused damage to the lungs and there was quite a bit of blood about.
As the stalk was okay I went out with my AW again and put him up a high seat and off I went in the opposite direction. Another buck presented himself and I thought I had better go for a neck shot to ensure the chest remained clean, this I did and everything went fine. I felt pressurised into going for a neck shot and I thought this was wrong - the boiler room is the classic safe option.

 

[6pointer]

Please also remember the AW is only as good as the client he has out. He is not there to help or be knowledgeable about deer stalking on that particular day. You will never be a popular AW if you assess properly because it is my belief that to many just get signed off to early and when they really need more deer on the ground or more years of practice.

 

[widows son]

Wow, you're giving your age away now Keith, that was indeed many moons ago!!! ................

One of the clients our AW witnessed had been out about 7 times with another AW, he was instructed by the estate that all deer MUST be chest shot, and he duly chest shot four deer.

The AW refused to sign him off on any of the grallochs because he couldn't find the mediastinal lymph glands, even though he pointed out to the AW that the shot had actually destroyed the Mediastinal.

The client found all the other lymph glands with ease, and he knew where the mediastinal should have been, but they were spread over the ground behind where the deer was stood. He even challenged the AW to find them (he refused).

How do people feel about that???? ...... Was the AW in order, or unreasonable?

Mike
(Director - Jelen Deer Services) Home | Jelen Deer Services

He was totally out of order .

There never the easiest to find after a heart and lung shot, it is a good enough answer to ask in what proximity you will find them .Far simpler to ask for the mesenteric on the viscera or the submaxillary or retro pharyngeal usually far enough away from any bullet strike area to find cleanly.


The AW stalk is a representation of what one would normally carry out in the field, whilst stalking themselves ,it is not meant to put anyone under any sort of pressure, daily life has enough of that, without it in the down and chill out stalking time, any AW that carries out a stalk like this should give the AW bit up there only making a arse of themselves and the system .

 

[patrickt]

on this topic, word of mouth is the best way, is it not. this forum may be the very place to do so. You could get members/guests to reccomend AW's in their area, there is some very useful information coming through on this subject, nice to hear from Jelen services, makes a welcome change to have a provider being praised for their services!!

 

[willie_gunn]

The AW stalk is a representation of what one would normally carry out in the field, whilst stalking themselves ,it is not meant to put anyone under any sort of pressure, daily life has enough of that, without it in the down and chill out stalking time, any AW that carries out a stalk like this should give the AW bit up there only making a arse of themselves and the system .

+1

A thoroughly sensible answer.

 

[buck52]

Please also remember the AW is only as good as the client he has out. He is not there to help or be knowledgeable about deer stalking on that particular day. You will never be a popular AW if you assess properly because it is my belief that to many just get signed off to early and when they really need more deer on the ground or more years of practice.

"remember the AW is only as good as the client he has out"
What a load of twaddle, surely an AW only gets to be so because, allegedly, they have more experience and have had more "practise" than the Candidate.
In addition I believe an interview, or vetting process, is carried out before AW status is granted. or is it that "to many just get signed off to early"

 

[caorach]

There is always a problem with "experts" who appoint themselves, effectively, to judge others. This is an invitation for the wrong sort of person. In the end there is nothing complex or requiring years of experience at all in the DSC2 as it is written. It is not like people are being asked to bring the deer back to good health, merely to put a hole in it, rip the internal organs out and point at some of them.