is it an offence to be in posetion of a rifle bolt

[patrol01]

Just a thought: hears the back ground, Im going to purchase a .22 rifle from a private seller. I have a free ticket for a .22 and moderator on my licence however My licence is away getting opened up should be back in a week.

So here is the question if I offer cash before my licence is back can I take the bolt from the seller so that he cant resell it before my licence comes back. I know I can't take the rifle or the mod but what parts of a rifle can you own or be in possession of before it becomes an offence. ?

What are the implications me having in my position a rifle bolt.

I must stress the situation I have descrbed has not happend , and Im seeking guidance from this fourm to the implications before i would consider it.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Can get complex, but general good rule of thumb is that any pressure bearing component requires some form of authority to possess. A bolt would fall into that.

If you dont trust the guy enough to do the deal on cash basis etc, ask yourself if want to deal at all!

However, in the vein of the original question, the stock maybe the item to go for.

 

[Sinistral]

Going back to first principles, I believe a firearm is defined as a 'lethal-barreled weapon'.... so I'd say you're OK.

I'm not sure how moderators fit this designation, apart from the fact that these were previously controlled under the Acts. My thinking is that the CPS would be ridiculed in court if they brought charges against someone in possession of a rifle-bolt ..... in the circumstances you've outlined.

 

[Virbius]

You need an FAC to buy a bolt - for example if you lost/damaged a bolt you would need to present your FAC to purchase a replacement. My belief is that the bolt and/or rifle constitue a 'firearm' so I don't think it would be wise to have ownership of the bolt.
Will he not accept a deposit to hold the rifle? Draft a brief agreement that you both sign so you have a basic contract. I did the same when selling a car privately - got £500 deposit until the bankers draft arrived, then only sent the V5 when the funds had cleared - all covered on a basic document signed by both of us.
Also - is the rifle worth the risk of looosing it against being in (possibly unlawful) possession of the bolt?
David

 

[Uncle Norm]

In Law the bolt is a component part of a firearm. As it is a pressure-bearing part, it is subject to Sect 1 control. Do not take possession of the bolt until the firearm is transferred to you.
The other matters are ones of integrity and confidence. Much sound advice has been offered by out other members.

 

[jamross65]

Itis not just the complete firearm you need a certificate for, it is any componant part thereof as well. The bolt without question falls under that description. As it does not generally carry a serial number specific to one firearm, I would guess the logic that would be applied is that one bolt could be possessed per authorisation on your certificate. So, if you have a slot for a 243 for example and have not yet purchased that weapon,then possessing one bolt on its own may be acceptable. However, without any vacant authorisations on your cert, I would suggest then taking a bolt would not be acceptable.

I am guessing at the latter part of the above, but the bit about any componant part is correct. Action and bolt without doubt would fall under that.

 

[jamross65]

Just checked something out on HMRC website and it appears that what I said earlier is correct. If you have authorisation to possess a weapon, than possessing individual parts to make that weapon is acceptable...

 

[matt_hooks]

Virbius, my understanding of what you say is slightly different. For an RFD to do any work on a firearm, you need to prove to them that you are in legal possession of the firearm. Now, if you are buying a bolt, it will need to be fitted to your action, and checked for head space, then proofed etc. so you will have to present the rifle. This means you will need to show the RFD proof of legal authority to hold before they hand the weapon back to you.

If you're worried about him selling to someone else, could you not pay in full and get the firearm transferred to your local RFD to hold until your ticket comes back? It shouldn't cost much, and you can hand over the cash in the knowledge that he can't stiff you.

 

[Virbius]

Virbius, my understanding of what you say is slightly different. For an RFD to do any work on a firearm, you need to prove to them that you are in legal possession of the firearm. Now, if you are buying a bolt, it will need to be fitted to your action, and checked for head space, then proofed etc. so you will have to present the rifle. This means you will need to show the RFD proof of legal authority to hold before they hand the weapon back to you.

If you're worried about him selling to someone else, could you not pay in full and get the firearm transferred to your local RFD to hold until your ticket comes back? It shouldn't cost much, and you can hand over the cash in the knowledge that he can't stiff you.

Yes, matt_hooks - and it you believe some comments on threads, the rifle has to be returned to the manufacturer as well.
David

 

[patrickt]

In Law the bolt is a component part of a firearm. As it is a pressure-bearing part, it is subject to Sect 1 control. Do not take possession of the bolt until the firearm is transferred to you.
The other matters are ones of integrity and confidence. Much sound advice has been offered by out other members.

Iam with you uncle norm, but in any event if you have paid for the rifle, even in cash, the seller and you will have to fill in the transfers, so, it is hardly likely that once having done so, the seller can retain the rifle, if he does he commits an offence of theft, and is breach of his FA certificate (in possession of a firearm without current certificate), also a criminal offence flows from that under sec 1 FA 1968 up to 5 years custody, and of course if the seller was given a custodial sentence of 3 months, he banned for possessing a firearm for 5 years, and if he was given a 3 years sentence he is banned for life, I ask you would any rational thinking person in aour fraternity want to do that.....I don't think so

 

[Pro_guitar]

Unfortunately the bolt is classed as a "component" part under the firearms definition, you have the politicians to thank for that!

Definition of firearm

A lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot , bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes any prohibited weapon lethal barrelled or not. Any "component part". Any "accessory" which are designed or adapted to diminish sound or flash caused by firing the weapon.

 

[Overlay]

I would give the guy a deposit and assure him you want the rifle, I wouldn't take a part of the rifle, seems very much like a misplacement of trust, if the guy doesn't want a deposit only full payment, walk away, there are plenty more rifles in the market place. you wouldn't give a deposit if you weren't interested

Hope it works out

 

[bewsher500]

I am surprised by some of the interpretations of firearms law here

a barrel, a bolt (and unless I am mistaken, a receiver) are all pressure bearing components and parts of a rifle that are restricted. you can not purchase them without proper authority either assembled or as individual components.

the only barrel that is not restricted is one that has not yet been chambered. it is after all just a tube without a chamber

echo the feeling that if you need to take part of the rifle to make sure your money is safe then you have a bigger problem with the vendor.
its a week you are talking about, surely a small deposit will seal the deal, but to be honest there are so many .22lr's for sale just wait.

speak to the firearms dept.
ordinarily they are usually open to issues around purchases whilst the FAC is in their position.
if you already have a "slot" why do the Police have it? what are they "opening up"?

 

[csl]

Not wishing to confuse the issue but what happens, for example, if you have a rifle in an obsolete calibre? No licence required, no need to deactivate, and you are in possession of a bolt that could in theory work in another rifle in a current calibre. For that matter the barrel may be nominally of a current diameter too (albeit the chamber would not).

No offence to posses the bolt or the barrel.

However, if you fit that bolt into a working firearm to use it then you must have that firearm on your certificate for use as such or an offence is committed.

It's like the sound moderator argument - same moderator fits on .22 air rifle, .22 rimfire and maybe even .22 centrefire. No offence to posses it. However, once you stick it onto a firearm you are breaking the law unless you have prior authorisation on your certificate.

I'm sure most RFD's would ask to see your certificate before selling you a bolt as they assume, perfectly reasonably, that you intend to use it in a firearm that you have and should therefore have authorisation for it - but I'm not convinced that simply possessing a bolt is an offence in this case because he doesn't have the rifle it is supposed to go in and therefore it is just an object that can be acquired by other completely legal means.

I could be completely wrong of course, and in any case my advice is the same as every one else - if in doubt of the law, or the reliability of the seller - AVOID!

Alex

 

[jamross65]

Not wishing to confuse the issue but what happens, for example, if you have a rifle in an obsolete calibre? No licence required, no need to deactivate, and you are in possession of a bolt that could in theory work in another rifle in a current calibre. For that matter the barrel may be nominally of a current diameter too (albeit the chamber would not).

No offence to posses the bolt or the barrel.

However, if you fit that bolt into a working firearm to use it then you must have that firearm on your certificate for use as such or an offence is committed.

It's like the sound moderator argument - same moderator fits on .22 air rifle, .22 rimfire and maybe even .22 centrefire. No offence to posses it. However, once you stick it onto a firearm you are breaking the law unless you have prior authorisation on your certificate.

I'm sure most RFD's would ask to see your certificate before selling you a bolt as they assume, perfectly reasonably, that you intend to use it in a firearm that you have and should therefore have authorisation for it - but I'm not convinced that simply possessing a bolt is an offence in this case because he doesn't have the rifle it is supposed to go in and therefore it is just an object that can be acquired by other completely legal means.

I could be completely wrong of course, and in any case my advice is the same as every one else - if in doubt of the law, or the reliability of the seller - AVOID!

Alex

CSL

My interpretation of the law means that it is an offence to possess a bolt for a section 1 firearm, whether you have the rest of the component parts or not. The following is a direct lift from the Mets advice on possession. It is for this reason that I said earlier that if you have an open slot on your certificate to purchase a sect 1 firearm, you could effectively have just the bolt in your possession as a start to building the whole rifle. I know that is not in practice what would happen but the point is being made. I do not think that any reference is made to pressure baring component parts either. It is simply a component part...

[h=1]Firearms Licensing[/h][h=2]Firearms applications[/h]

A firearm is a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged.A firearms certificate must be held for any firearm or ammunition.Except:​

• Shot guns which may be held on a Shotgun Certificate
• Shot gun cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds ·36 inch in diameter, which can only be purchased on production of a Shotgun Certificate
• Air weapons of a type not declared specially dangerous (i.e. those falling below a prescribed muzzle energy limit)
• Ammunition for an air gun, air rifle or air pistol
• Blank cartridges not more than one inch in diameter

The Police grant Firearm Certificates predominantly for single shot rifles of any calibre, self-loading .22RF rifles (and corresponding ammunition) and muzzle loading pistols. Component parts of Section 1 firearms also require a Firearm Certificate, as do accessories such as sound moderators.




​

 

[csl]

Interesting... so if he acquired the bolt should he notify his police force that he has part-filled his slot? Also, how would they know that bolt was for the correct rifle? A .243 bolt could be the same as a .308 bolt.

"I have acquired a bolt for my .243"

Police: "That looks like a .308 bolt to me sir, you're nicked!"

I'm playing devil's advocate now... but what about components of components... a spring, a firing pin a thick metal tube... oh, it's a bolt!



Out of interest, has anyone actually purchased a replacement bolt? What is the process? Do you have to inform the police of the loss of the old one?

Alex

 

[hamish dick]

yes it is as I know from first hand< cant you leave a deposit and take the scope? if it has one , sound like he doesnt seem a trustworthy bloke, if he cant wait a week

 

[patrol01]

up date: ok as it happens , the guy was just about the nicest genuine person I have met. the rifle was in fantastic nick and after we talked about what was a fair price the original starting price was cut substantially we agreed on a mutual agreeable figure. As the guy seamed so genuine I have just left it that both our words are our bond, I did ask to leave a substantial deposit but just my address and phone number was required, as soon as cert is back i will pay in full cash. I have been fooled in the past and i dare say i will be fooled in the future, but thanks to some people the faith in humanity some times shines through. Watch this space.

as to the original question I still think it was an interesting one.

 

[jamross65]

Interesting... so if he acquired the bolt should he notify his police force that he has part-filled his slot? Also, how would they know that bolt was for the correct rifle? A .243 bolt could be the same as a .308 bolt.

"I have acquired a bolt for my .243"

Police: "That looks like a .308 bolt to me sir, you're nicked!"

I'm playing devil's advocate now... but what about components of components... a spring, a firing pin a thick metal tube... oh, it's a bolt!



Out of interest, has anyone actually purchased a replacement bolt? What is the process? Do you have to inform the police of the loss of the old one?

Alex

Well, there is the issue...

Again this is my interpretation, but until the bolt is fitted to a rifle of the authorised to possess chambering, it is just a component part...

The internals of the bolt themselves, would not be necessarily adapted for a firearm bot, but could be used in other applications. A bolt however in its entirety is a different matter. I agree with the comment earlier as well, that a barrel is just a steel rod with a hole up it until it is chambered to accept a rifle cartridge. It has them become adapted to be a component part of a firearm.

It's a bit of a minefield..

Don't know if you remember the case in East Lothian a few years ago, where the young lad imported all the component parts for a semi auto pistol from the states and was literally about one part off building the full weapon? He even had all the reloading bits and pieces ready to go. Scary thought...

 

[csl]

Disclaimer...

Right, it has been pointed out to me that my posts might be taken as gospel by readers of the site - it isn't! Admin by my name does not a lawyer make.

I don't know the definitive answer I just like exploring grey areas, please don't interpret what I have written as law!

End disclaimer.

Alex