Minimum training standard??

[Virbius]

And what happens to the stalkers who are already on a shoestring budget?... £250 for DSC1 + all the training aids, DVD's and manuals, fuel to get to the venue and a day off work (unpaid) then there's DSC2... same again + 3 witnessed stalks.
If these tests become mandatory, no doubt the prices will take a hike

Is it to become a rich man's game?

Good valid points, Si.

However there are already people offering the DSC1 in two hits do you don't have to take time off all at once, if it became compulsory the flip-side is that with supply and demand, more people offering the course would lead to more competitive pricing, and there could possibly be bursaries or concessions available as there are in many other education courses.

In the big scheme of things it is not a huge amount of money, and compared to other vocational training it is pretty competitive. For example, £470 for a City & Guilds 17th Edition wiring regulations before you can wire up a plug as an electrical tradesman. Compared to the money people spend on rifle, scope, mounts, moderator, sling, bipod, clothing, footwear, ammunition, binoculars, knives, etc it is a small percentage.

 

[Bandit Country]

..... do you really think that denegrating FLOs at any opportunity is helping our case? ........

In my opinion dealing with conflict of this nature should be done in a harmonious and collaborative way rather than challenging.....

You keep conflating disparate problems. Slagging off FLOs (rightly or wrongly - and something I don't recall doing in public?) has nothing to do with the possible imposition of mandatory stalking qualifications in Scotland. Ironically, while you are advocate a harmonious and collaborative approach to conflict management the Scottish Government is happy to run about 'challenging' the shooting community with impunity. Sadly, it appears that the sector representatives in Scotland are happy to connive in this charade and encourage one and all to get qualified.
As already noted not everyone has deep pockets. I have no idea what the qualification rate is amongst stalkers in Scotland. What happens if/when it 'voluntarily' gets to say, 40 or 50%? Perhaps the Scottish Government would say that so many folk have got the qualification it should be mandatory - after all, these good folk have invested time and money in getting qualified, so we should recognise that and make it the same for everybody!
I've just read that your Justice Secretary is now recommending a cap on the number of firearms & shotguns held by individuals. Would you also agree to a voluntary reduction of firearms holdings "... in order to placate those who do not share our passion for the sport."? Apparently Kenny reckons it will reassure and keep the people of Scotland safe - so that' all right then...... The words thin, end and wedge come to mind.

 

[Si]

I've just read that your Justice Secretary is now recommending a cap on the number of firearms & shotguns held by individuals. Would you also agree to a voluntary reduction of firearms holdings "... in order to placate those who do not share our passion for the sport."? Apparently Kenny reckons it will reassure and keep the people of Scotland safe - so that' all right then...... The words thin, end and wedge come to mind.

Yes because the number of accidents caused by unqualified stalkers must have reached epidemic proportion

 

[Virbius]

I've just read that your Justice Secretary

He's not mine, I'm English.

 

[Bandit Country]

He's not mine, I'm English.

Sorry - didn't realise you're an ex-pat. I assume you moved for the better weather?

 

[Virbius]

No, I wanted to learn a foreign language...

 

[caorach]

I just thought to add that I've had an acknowledgement from SNH that they are dealing with my FOI request.

Hopefully I should have some figures from them around the end of July and this may then move things along a a little.

 

[Glen Cadwallader]

I just thought to add that I've had an acknowledgement from SNH that they are dealing with my FOI request.

Hopefully I should have some figures from them around the end of July and this may then move things along a a little.

Keep us posted bud.

 

[6pointer]

They dont take long most times less than 20 days look forward to reading the reply.

 

[Jelendeer]

Very interesting thread.

My opinion - and also that of our Game dealer who deals with many thousands of carcasses a year - is that since the advent of DSC training/qualification, the number of badly shot deer has in fact reduced significantly. I certainly believe that that DSC has had a marked affect on animal welfare.

I can see why a lot of folks are against DSC becoming a minimum standard for deer stalkers in Scotland, but I can also see why SNH are looking towards this.

My prediction is that this will happen in England and Wales too in the future - if nothing else to put yet another obstacle in the path of normal folk getting FAC's - Just my opinion. We're already seeing Police in certain areas 'insisting' on FAC applicants holding DSC1 as a prerequisite to grant of an FAC ......... Thin end of the wedge if you ask me.

Regards,

 

[Si]

Very interesting thread.

My opinion - and also that of our Game dealer who deals with many thousands of carcasses a year - is that since the advent of DSC training/qualification, the number of badly shot deer has in fact reduced significantly. I certainly believe that that DSC has had a marked affect on animal welfare.

I can see why a lot of folks are against DSC becoming a minimum standard for deer stalkers in Scotland, but I can also see why SNH are looking towards this.

My prediction is that this will happen in England and Wales too in the future - if nothing else to put yet another obstacle in the path of normal folk getting FAC's - Just my opinion. We're already seeing Police in certain areas 'insisting' on FAC applicants holding DSC1 as a prerequisite to grant of an FAC ......... Thin end of the wedge if you ask me.

Regards,

Not just your opinion Mike, it's mine too... From an animal welfare POV, the number of RTA's involving deer should be more cause for concern than the comparatively insignificant numbers badly shot by unqualified stalkers.

Once again, the collar and tie's looking for a solution to a problem which really doesn't exist.

 

[caorach]

Once again, the collar and tie's looking for a solution to a problem which really doesn't exist.

That is certainly the crux of my position, unfortunately there appear to be a lot involved in stalking who accept the rather strange and completely unsupported concept that stalking, stalkers and their use of firearms is dangerous. This appears to be sold for the most part by the antis through the popular media and is supported by statements like "as everyone knows..."

The only reason "everyone knows" is because they keep hearing this message repeated and they get an emotional attachment to it which has no basis in the facts. The facts are that any suggestion stalking is dangerous is utter rubbish.

I am given to believe that about 141 people die each year in accidents putting on their trousers. There is no evidence that stalkers with legally held firearms cause anywhere near this level of risk, danger, death, damage to society and the like. So, if we ignore emotional arguments expounded by those who discriminate against us because of our beliefs then there is absolutely no reason to further regulate stalking. Anyone who does argue for more regulation is doing so based upon an emotional argument and they would better protect society from death and danger by arguing for extensive restrictions on the ownership of trousers and for training courses which must be undertaken by those allowed to own them. After all they kill 141 people per year, on average.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

A zipper in the wrong hands... Darwinism at work perhaps

 

[Bandit Country]

My opinion - and also that of our Game dealer who deals with many thousands of carcasses a year - is that since the advent of DSC training/qualification, the number of badly shot deer has in fact reduced significantly.

I wouldn't disagree with your prediction but I note that your "opinion" morphs into a "fact" by the end of the sentence? The interpretation of such 'facts' warrants some care. There may be a number of reasons for an apparent reduction in the number of badly shot deer since the introduction of DSC1. The number of recreational stalkers has reportedly increased since DSC qualifications became available. Possibly the new part-timers are doing a better job than the old-time professionals?

 

[Jelendeer]

I wouldn't disagree with your prediction but I note that your "opinion" morphs into a "fact" by the end of the sentence? The interpretation of such 'facts' warrants some care. There may be a number of reasons for an apparent reduction in the number of badly shot deer since the introduction of DSC1. The number of recreational stalkers has reportedly increased since DSC qualifications became available. Possibly the new part-timers are doing a better job than the old-time professionals?

Nope, ...... its just the standards of shooting have improved since DSC1 came along.

On the subject of who's doing a better job, well, the shooting organisations tell us that stalking has been - and still is - the fastest growing fieldsport in the UK over the last 5 years and there are more stalkers now than there has ever been. The ecologists tell us that there are more deer around now than there's ever been!!!! .... What does that tell you? .... It tells me that SOMEBODY isn't doing a good job, and it aint the professionals!!! ............ (INCOMING!!!!!)

But having thought about it, the problem might be the sheer numbers of 'armchair stalkers' and 'bandwagoners' on SD! ....... They can't be out there doing a good job as they seem to have a full-time job trawling SD for 'targets' instead of getting out there and shooting some deer!!! (HEAVY ARTILLERY INCOMNG!!!!)

Regards,

 

[Jelendeer]

........................ That was a joke by the way!!!! Honest!!! ....... No disrespect to the recreational stalkers!!!! .... AAaaaaaaaaaarrrggh!!!!

 

[Si]

Nope, ...... its just the standards of shooting have improved since DSC1 came along.

Yes... because DSC1 turns us all into professional marksmen, everyone knows that

 

[Bandit Country]

The ecologists tell us that there are more deer around now than there's ever been!!!! .... What does that tell you? .... It tells me that SOMEBODY isn't doing a good job, and it aint the professionals!!! ............ (INCOMING!!!!!)

An interesting deduction - or am I misreading your double negative? Are you suggesting that responsibility for the increasing deer population now lies with recreational stalkers? I'm obviously a bit naive as I thought it was the job of the professionals to manage the deer? By your reasoning, any rise in crime should be attributed to the incompetence of Neighbourhood Watch rather than the police. (To avoid triggering a swivel-eyed, foam flecked response about the causes or otherwise of a rise in crime, real or imagined, I'm not blaming the police I'm simply using an analogy ..... OK?)

 

[6pointer]

Sadly you are very very wrong Jelen it is the pro,s that caused the increase. The more deer to go at the more money they made. Reds became so numerous that they effected the whole ecosystem in place up north. Down south places like cannock chase thetford and others were allowed to get to incredible numbers by professional deer managers. Only very recent is this starting to be addressed by employing recreational stalkers and paying them to do the job the highly paid pro,s failed to do.

 

[Jelendeer]

Sadly you are very very wrong Jelen it is the pro,s that caused the increase. The more deer to go at the more money they made. Reds became so numerous that they effected the whole ecosystem in place up north. Down south places like cannock chase thetford and others were allowed to get to incredible numbers by professional deer managers. Only very recent is this starting to be addressed by employing recreational stalkers and paying them to do the job the highly paid pro,s failed to do.

D'ya know what Davie, you got a point there!!! ......... But, it still goes on now with one or two (NOT ALL) so called professionals as well as some (NOT ALL) recreational stalkers. We have seen some guys - calling themselves 'professionals' - who are engaged to manage deer, control damage, reduce deer numbers for landowners, but instead 'engineer' the situation to suit themselves. Does and hinds are not culled at all or very little, and female deer are deliberately left to swell numbers in the area - so there wil be more shooting in the future!!!

Trouble is that it may be two or three years before some landowners are aware of the problem. I have seen guys, embarrassingly, try defend themselves when landowners have asked why there's three times more damage now than there was two years ago!

I take your point. There are those that simply don't do the job, and there are those that deliberately do the job in their own interests rather than in that of the customer!

Regards,