.243 or .308?!

[Brithunter]

Bh the op choose a 243, and if I remember rightly from the time we met he had not shot it at deer, due to problems with the gun, you are right in there are pros and cons for both, as I shoot deer with a 3030 which is slower than both, and started stalking with a 303, which most people would say are way under powered.
I also have a 243 for those long shoots though.

303 underpowered ............................. when I asked about using my P-H supreme for deer the FEO a chap called Norman .................... did the sucking of teeth bit and then said no as that a military calibre and so far too powerful . So change of tack and I said never mind I have been offered a nice 7.7mm to which he said :-

I have never heard of one of those

This was after counting my 303 ammunition of which there were quite a few blue and white boxes of FNM that is clearly marked on the ends and one side at least 7.7x56R . Of course the ia also the 7.7mm Japanese cartridge but we don't see many Arisaka's in the UK it seems.

How people forget that Norma and Kynoch to name just two also loaded the 303 cartridge with lighter bullets than the std Military 175 grain. Kynoch loaded the 150 grain bullets to 2700 fps.Norma claimed 2723 fps for their 150 grain loading. Neither of my Norma booklets list the 130 grain loading they produced but there is a box of it in my small collection.

In the thread discussing the .243 vs .308 you will see that Hornady were a bit conservative in their load data for the .308 with the 150 grain bullet and their loads only achieved 2700 fps ........................................ wow just the same as Kynoch and Norma loaded the 303 too but of course 303 is underpowered yet the .308 is a super deer cartridge .

Now as for the 30-30 well that need not be slower in a suitable rifle the ole 30-30 is not slouch. I load the 30-30 for a bespoke Medwell & Perritt rifle with 130 grain Hornady SP bullets to 2800 fps ( of course one cannot recommend their use in an undler lever like the Marlin or Winchester).

It works a treat on deer:-

As this clearly shows. She went a whole 10 feet after the shot.

 

[Brithunter]

Maybe one reason is that being virtually the same as the military round, more is known about it's ballistics than any other calibre




In my opinion, yes in the context of the humane shooting of deer

The reason the 7.62x51 is used at Bisley is historical and although a lot of the idea has been lost with the current leadership of the NRA. The shooting at Bisley was based upon the idea that Britain needed trained riflemen to help in times of trouble and strife and war. It really took hold after the dismal showing of the British Army against the farm rabble as the brass thought them of the Boers who showed the professional soldiers of the British army how to shoot.

Lord Roberts reorganised the NRA of the day and set out improving marksmanship in Britain and the British Army. The idea was that civilians and territorial (volunteers) would practice and compete with service rifles so not only would they be able to actually hit what they aimed at but also be familiar with the countries service rifle. That of course was the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield of the day and the 303 cartridge. When the 7.62x51 was foisted upon us the NRA adopted that cartridge which is still used in the Imperial meeting to this day even if the rifles bear no resemblance to a service rifle save having a barrel and trigger to fire it.

In some competitions at Bisley the 5.56mm cartridge may be used.

Perhaps it would have been better if we had told the Americans to stuff the 7.62x51 and went instead with the .280 British. The 7.62x51 was a stop gap as far as the Americans were concerned until they brought the 5.56mm into service and Nato would adopt the Stoner M16 platform. The 7.62x51 was developed so that the Americans stocks of 30-06 rifles could be adapted tot eh shorter round.

 

[kennyc]

The reason the 7.62x51 is used at Bisley is historical and although a lot of the idea has been lost with the current leadership of the NRA. The shooting at Bisley was based upon the idea that Britain needed trained riflemen to help in times of trouble and strife and war. It really took hold after the dismal showing of the British Army against the farm rabble as the brass thought them of the Boers who showed the professional soldiers of the British army how to shoot.

Lord Roberts reorganised the NRA of the day and set out improving marksmanship in Britain and the British Army. The idea was that civilians and territorial (volunteers) would practice and compete with service rifles so not only would they be able to actually hit what they aimed at but also be familiar with the countries service rifle. That of course was the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield of the day and the 303 cartridge. When the 7.62x51 was foisted upon us the NRA adopted that cartridge which is still used in the Imperial meeting to this day even if the rifles bear no resemblance to a service rifle save having a barrel and trigger to fire it.

In some competitions at Bisley the 5.56mm cartridge may be used.

Perhaps it would have been better if we had told the Americans to stuff the 7.62x51 and went instead with the .280 British. The 7.62x51 was a stop gap as far as the Americans were concerned until they brought the 5.56mm into service and Nato would adopt the Stoner M16 platform. The 7.62x51 was developed so that the Americans stocks of 30-06 rifles could be adapted tot eh shorter round.

+cheap milsurp is available in 7.62x51 which makes practise a whole lot more affordable!

 

[Brithunter]

Just bear in mind that with some rifles there can be issues when using 7.62x51 in a .308. there are slight differences in cartridge case as well as loading pressures.

I only use 7.62x51 in rifles chambered for it like my two target rifles. In the .308's I tend to load FMJ or target orientated "non expanding" bullets.

 

[BunnyDoom]

OK I know I said .243 or .308... but I've just been looking at the 7mm-08 REM - which appears to outperform the .308 in every way (velocity, windage, trajectory, etc)??? So does the 30-06 springfield for that matter?

A friend of mine also mentioned the .270, and the BC on this round does look good.

Is it fair to say from what all of you have said that the .308 is probably the better idea due to the sheer range of performance that can be achieved with difference weights and loads?!

 

[jimbo1984]

OK I know I said .243 or .308... but I've just been looking at the 7mm-08 REM - which appears to outperform the .308 in every way (velocity, windage, trajectory, etc)??? So does the 30-06 springfield for that matter?

A friend of mine also mentioned the .270, and the BC on this round does look good.

Is it fair to say from what all of you have said that the .308 is probably the better idea due to the sheer range of performance that can be achieved with difference weights and loads?!

if the option is there I would strongly urge you to go for a 7mm 08 I think it would be a much better option for stalking than either the 308 or 243 flatshooting able to handle bullets up to 160 grains and plenty of power for deer or boar

 

[Paul at Fechan]

for gods sake! .243 is a weak calibre and delivers around the 1700 ft/lb mark. A .308 win delivers around the 2700 ft/lb mark and that's a whole extra roe legal amount of energy!!

Right now STOP! Forget FLAT what is flat shooting?? That's right Eureka! the solution for people who can't stalk to within 200m of their quarry

Get a .308 and learn to shoot and stalk, any other calibre will on do the same at similar energies but the .308 win is a proper mans gun.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I've used a 243. on roe with the occasional red for several years without any problems, ( Don't be deluded it ain't no "Girly Gun" )

Recently I have started to use the 308. which has better Knock Down Power for sure.

It's realy down to personal preference & wish you the best whichever you choose

(I do feel the 308. bucks the wnd better)

Rgds, Buck.

 

[Brithunter]

OK I know I said .243 or .308... but I've just been looking at the 7mm-08 REM - which appears to outperform the .308 in every way (velocity, windage, trajectory, etc)??? So does the 30-06 springfield for that matter?

A friend of mine also mentioned the .270, and the BC on this round does look good.

Is it fair to say from what all of you have said that the .308 is probably the better idea due to the sheer range of performance that can be achieved with difference weights and loads?!

You asked about .243 Vs .308 so we answered THAT question.

Now if you want to talk .28" or 7mm calibres well OK we can do that .

For a start the normal heavyweight bullet in 7mm is the 175 grain and NOT the 160 grain. The 7.08 may use a 160 grain as let's face it we are back to the same problem powder space that the .308 runs into with bullets over 165 grains. If you want a .28" calibre then get a proper one like the 7mm Mauser (7x57mm) or .275 Rigby to give it it's British "posh" name this cartridge will comfortably handle the 175 grain bullets after all it was designed with the 175 grain round nose bullet in mind back in 1891/2 plus there are some custom heavier bullets available if one wants to pay through the nose for them.

Next up is moving to long actions ...................................... Oh dear can you manage another 1/2" of bolt throw?

Is the 7x64mm or the .280 Remington .

The .270 Winchester is a classic and seems to be regaining some popularity in the UK. For years it had been "unfashionable" with wild tales of terrible recoil beating up poor defenceless shooters ....................................... .

One might think of the 7x64 and the 280 rem as a super .270 Winchester and they can give the same velocities with similiar weight bullets as the 270 Winchester BUT there is a wider selection of bullets in 7mm/.284" than there is in .277". In 7mm it's also easy to find non expanding bullets for range practice ........................................... something that is not so easy with the 270. Talking of the 270 I suppose one should mention the new upstart that has a small following here on the SD .......................................................... the .270 WSM. IMHO one must think long and hard as there is still a lot of doubt as to whether cases will still be available in the future. It seems t have flopped quite badly in the US so cases might just be difficult to get hold of in the future. For a better idea of the cartridges forbiles and virtues you had best ask them as they know it and use it. Me I'll happily stick with the orginal 270 Winchester thank you .

What you need to do is decide what you want to use the rifle for then build your case for good reason. Don't beat your self up to much over paper tables.

Oh yes the "claimed" BC of a lot of bullets by the makers is a lot of smoke and mirrors ....................................... whilst they might not always downright lie there is a lot of "speak with forked tongue" when talking about the BC of their bullets.

 

[kennyc]

for gods sake! .243 is a weak calibre and delivers around the 1700 ft/lb mark. A .308 win delivers around the 2700 ft/lb mark and that's a whole extra roe legal amount of energy!!

Right now STOP! Forget FLAT what is flat shooting?? That's right Eureka! the solution for people who can't stalk to within 200m of their quarry

Get a .308 and learn to shoot and stalk, any other calibre will on do the same at similar energies but the .308 win is a proper mans gun.

nicely put

 

[Acm]

for gods sake! .243 is a weak calibre and delivers around the 1700 ft/lb mark. A .308 win delivers around the 2700 ft/lb mark and that's a whole extra roe legal amount of energy!!

Right now STOP! Forget FLAT what is flat shooting?? That's right Eureka! the solution for people who can't stalk to within 200m of their quarry

Get a .308 and learn to shoot and stalk, any other calibre will on do the same at similar energies but the .308 win is a proper mans gun.

Couldn't agree more I'm new to stalking ( relativly ) but often use a .22-250 . And have used a lamping mates .243 hundreds of nights . Quite frankly I can't see why you want a .243 in my opinion it's a bad compromise for two jobs . I love shooting my .308 and have yet to have a deer run this year . Just be careful with neck shots humane enough but can be a mess

 

[jimbo1984]

for gods sake! .243 is a weak calibre and delivers around the 1700 ft/lb mark. A .308 win delivers around the 2700 ft/lb mark and that's a whole extra roe legal amount of energy!!

Right now STOP! Forget FLAT what is flat shooting?? That's right Eureka! the solution for people who can't stalk to within 200m of their quarry

Get a .308 and learn to shoot and stalk, any other calibre will on do the same at similar energies but the .308 win is a proper mans gun.

i was never suggesting not stalking close to your quarry the majority of deer ive shot have been in 100 m range some a lot less i was merely saying i prefer the 7mm 08 as for me it is thhe best of the 243 and 308, hope that didnt hurt your proper mans feelings

 

[Virbius]

BunnyDoom, you've asked about the no. 1 SD contentious question - calibre!
Here's my answer: get the .308 and keep the .243 and just learn to shoot them both well at different ranges. If you want match/FMJ for practice you'll need to reload for the .243 but you could shoot it all day; FMJ factory readily available for the .308 - but not great for lots of range work if you get a light-weight stalking rifle. I started with a .308, now have .243 as well and am covered for pretty much anything I want to stalk in the UK & USA and Europe when I get round to going boar hunting!

 

[ziggy]

i love using my .308 but when i go shooting with a mate i tend to opt for his .243 as i like being able to see the impact of the bullet on the deer. it might be a lack of skill and technique on my part but i dont get that image when shooting my .308.

 

[nuttyspaniel]

I would have both. The 2 is probably the best 2 calibre combo you can have in a cabinet. But if I had to choose 1 calibre only for fox, roe and reds then it wouldnt be either, my preference would be a 25-06, it sits nicely in the middle of the 2 and does a damn good job.

Good luck
Nutty

 

[Grandhubert]

The .243 is enough for uk deer under most conditions.

The .308 is more than enough for uk deer under almost all conditions.

Therein lies the difference.

Oh and although it's not quite done to talk about it, there is a world of difference between a gutshot with a 308 and a gut shot with a 243. A shot in the guts from a 308 is not the equivalent as a .243 bullet through the heart and lungs but a heavier bullet in the 308 has a reasonable chance of exiting on a gut shot whereas a .243 bullet seldom will. The deer will be get sicker, quicker, of that there can be no doubt.

All bets are off however if shooting the 308 causes more gutshots in the first place.

 

[nuttyspaniel]

Ive owned all 3 calibres that Ive mentioned and it is just purely my opinion based on my experiances. Ive shot Reds, Roe and fox with the 243, never had a Red run with it, but never got a chance with the 308 to take a Red!! At the end I always took the 243 out and traded the 308 for a 222. I never got on with the 222 so traded both the 243 and 222 for a 25-06 and never looked back, again fox, roe and Reds fell to it.



nutty

 

[patrickt]

Don,t worry about calibre, worry about bullet placement, a 243 is ample for reds.

I agree with yu Taff, I have had both. 308 on Roe too heavy, Red OK, bullet placement is the key in my view stick to .243 100g

 

[nuttyspaniel]

The .243 is enough for uk deer under most conditions.

The .308 is more than enough for uk deer under almost all conditions.

Therein lies the difference.

Oh and although it's not quite done to talk about it, there is a world of difference between a gutshot with a 308 and a gut shot with a 243. A shot in the guts from a 308 is not the equivalent as a .243 bullet through the heart and lungs but a heavier bullet in the 308 has a reasonable chance of exiting on a gut shot whereas a .243 bullet seldom will. The deer will be get sicker, quicker, of that there can be no doubt.

All bets are off however if shooting the 308 causes more gutshots in the first place.

Very true and a good post. My 1st roe with the 308 was a gut shot. Personally I believe thats why I didnt lift it out of the cabinet as often, confidence was lost with the rifle.


nutty

 

[BunnyDoom]

You asked about .243 Vs .308 so we answered THAT question.

Now if you want to talk .28" or 7mm calibres well OK we can do that .

For a start the normal heavyweight bullet in 7mm is the 175 grain and NOT the 160 grain. The 7.08 may use a 160 grain as let's face it we are back to the same problem powder space that the .308 runs into with bullets over 165 grains. If you want a .28" calibre then get a proper one like the 7mm Mauser (7x57mm) or .275 Rigby to give it it's British "posh" name this cartridge will comfortably handle the 175 grain bullets after all it was designed with the 175 grain round nose bullet in mind back in 1891/2 plus there are some custom heavier bullets available if one wants to pay through the nose for them.

Next up is moving to long actions ...................................... Oh dear can you manage another 1/2" of bolt throw?

Is the 7x64mm or the .280 Remington .

The .270 Winchester is a classic and seems to be regaining some popularity in the UK. For years it had been "unfashionable" with wild tales of terrible recoil beating up poor defenceless shooters ....................................... .

One might think of the 7x64 and the 280 rem as a super .270 Winchester and they can give the same velocities with similiar weight bullets as the 270 Winchester BUT there is a wider selection of bullets in 7mm/.284" than there is in .277". In 7mm it's also easy to find non expanding bullets for range practice ........................................... something that is not so easy with the 270. Talking of the 270 I suppose one should mention the new upstart that has a small following here on the SD .......................................................... the .270 WSM. IMHO one must think long and hard as there is still a lot of doubt as to whether cases will still be available in the future. It seems t have flopped quite badly in the US so cases might just be difficult to get hold of in the future. For a better idea of the cartridges forbiles and virtues you had best ask them as they know it and use it. Me I'll happily stick with the orginal 270 Winchester thank you .

What you need to do is decide what you want to use the rifle for then build your case for good reason. Don't beat your self up to much over paper tables.

Oh yes the "claimed" BC of a lot of bullets by the makers is a lot of smoke and mirrors ....................................... whilst they might not always downright lie there is a lot of "speak with forked tongue" when talking about the BC of their bullets.

Thanks Brit that's really helpful