Bavarian mountain hound

[Wolverine]

Why is that Davie?People breeding hounds that are
A)not working tested(cold and hot tests,basic and advanced,if you wish)
B)not health tested
C)not conformation tested
No wonder the BGS world in the UK is seen as a laughing stock by serious dog men on the continent.
Dog men who are revered the world over and their hounds are the best in the world for these very reasons.Not a generation or two of dogs mishmashed together but selectively bred and worked for centuries,not 15 or so years.
Again not only German dogs,Hungarian,Swedish,French,Belgian etc etc
It is us the laughing stock not the continentals.Then again all of us know infinitely more about these dogs than where the breeds originated,don't make me laugh,it's sore.
Why is this......money.Pure and simple greed,no care for a breeds integrity or betterment of that breed.
Widu's post bang on the money,it's the DOGS that matter.

 

[6pointer]

George i hope you flash in the pan with the breed keeps up its intensity. Now only 10 months ago you new nothing of training these dogs you have only just got one and have started down what you describe a long road. You are professing to be an expert and are all knowledgeable.
If Widu is correct and no one who wants to own these dogs in the future will need to travel abroad then lets here how that can be done. Because as i see it and i might be wrong the super German dogs are so thin on the ground they are anorexic. This is both BMH and HS please you can laugh all you want but the breeds you try and promote are not what the deerstalkers here need they are useless. You have told me that you will not use your dog while out stalking that will be the job of your LAB. Brian is talking about getting a GWP because his HS is for cold sent only. Please you are talking about dogs that are far removed from what would be even remotely useful in Britain. I but i am sure when we change our way of deer stalking to match that of the europeans then the dogs you try and promote might be sought after.
WIDU,S Post dose not explain how you can get a German dog work it and breed it trail it and test it in Britain that's a long way off. If it could be done i am sure he would not have went to the trouble and expense he has.

Its not the dogs that matter its the team.

May be you should try and promote your own ideas with out decrying other peoples

 

[Wolverine]

Widu went to the trouble and expense to learn,as I have done.We are no experts nor profess to be,just know a bit more than a few on here.
What did I say to you Davie when you asked me to judge your dog testing day?Get someone else,I'm no expert on judging dogs in a test.You asked me to be an expert,IMO there is NO expert at the moment for judging in this country.I know of 1 man who may manage it.
Therefore how do I profess to be an expert after turning that down,if I wanted to profess to be an expert I'd have jumped at the chance.
I am in no way decrying anybodies ideas.
Now go to Germany(or nearly any other continental country) and you can get plenty of experts but we are that anti German(continental/we know better)that we can't open our minds to this.
The dogs matter when we are doing them a disservice,which IMO in the UK we are.
BGS/HS can do the job admirably as my labs can as per UK stalking.Ive researched a breed for over 4 years(not 10 months)now before getting a pup.As you say it's a long road to do it correctly,I'm up for that as I've done it with my labs,the scenthound tests is what really interests me,especially the Hauptpruefung.Thats a long way off for me and my dog.
However,I'll do it because I can and want to as long as I,like Widu,pass the Vorpruefung.
How many dogs/handlers in UK can do this,I wonder why?
I will use my labs and keep the line going as well because I love labs and its a good line of tracking dogs,HS as well once experienced enough,I wouldn't take a 5 month old pup out stalking,would you?
As you know I'm lucky,plenty of work for them all.
Ideas will be promoted soon enough Davie and I wonder where the testing day idea sprang up from,eh?

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Hi All.
Well first may i say to Grant N, Thank You for asking for some advise to help with the confusion and at times Bull, that one see''s and reads on here. What I feel i must say to you is as you may have noticed this is a very touchy and sensitive topic of discussion.
I would like to add that there are some staunch supporters in both camps and so at times it may seem a bit heated or personal occasionally.Well each to his own, OPINION, that is. OK I must at this point say that my feet are in the German camp. Why? because I am that kind of person who looks long and hard before I buy.Maybe it's a Yorkshire thing nah!! it's a personal thing especially when you are talking about DOGS any dogs. Boy you only had to be in the beer tent after a local country show after the terrier or Lurcher show and watch the fights over whose dog should have won or who breeds the best this or that many on here will surely agree so far.
Why the German camp.
Well i spoke to many people here and the UK- BGS soc,this was a few years ago now and I actually joined their ranks to look, watch, and learn more about these scent hounds and realised or should i say came to the conclusion that this way was not for me. Again this is my personal opinion,and the reasons i decided to not go down this route was the lack of real working dogs being bred from, and sadly for the breed the many and serious health issues coming out from should I say to much improper breeding practices . Now before anyone jumps down my throat, I will add that only a few weeks ago i met with the committee of the UK-BGS society on an other matter. I asked them their views on the BGS in the UK , Quote !! it is a DISASTER!was the unanimous answer.They are on here some of them and will no doubt if asked tell you the same. They are trying to educate the owners of this breed many are not members of their soc' and some that are refuse to listen. They are having to re -home so many dogs (BGS) because of health and temprament issues because being a Brittish KC recognised society they must have a rescue within the society. This is becoming serious and they are doing their best but it now is a real problem within this breed.
Now many on here have perfectly healthy, happy, and good natured BGS , dogs and bitches. This is where it gets very complicated and when folks get upset, Please let me say at this point I am not having a go at any ones dog or any persons or owners of BGS in any way. I am simply trying to show to Grant N a few facts and give him an explanation as to what is the situation here in the UK not simple or easy to do.
Fact one Grant , is that all the BGS being bred in the UK at the moment come mostly from Poland or Lithuania or somewhere else. Sadly the first imports were not all from as was believed working and or reputable breeders. Many had underlying health issues and none were accepted as being good enough to be accepted by the official KBGS in Germany That is not only the dogs but the clubs and organisations that advertise , breed and sell them. I guess you realize that a flashy web site with lots of pic's of Boar and Red deer and pretty dogs to some looks the business but sadly can be far from the truth.
The above is and I apologise for it being so long winded the facts of the past history of the BGS in the UK, now would be a good time to say that some do work very well and their owners are very happy with their BGS .Yet there are some that are not so good and there owners or ex -owners might not be so happy as with some other breeds I feel..
As for the German bred dogs.
The KBGS ( Klub for the Bavarian Mountain ScentHound) was founded in 1912 as an officially recognised breed. Since then they have strictly controlled the ownership and breeding of their Hounds. Only Hounds that have passed strict working tests and their conformation is to a certain standard are they eligible to be bred from and then they are only allowed to produce 20 pups per dog. They like every breed have had some health problems in the past but the fact is if a problem is found then everything that is possible is done to solve and eradicate this as soon as is possible by the members and their senior management.This means less chance of health
issues within the breed .
Some on here say they are impossible to get let me say they are not I have one and there is one other here.
Some say you have to jump through hundreds of hoops to get one and or travel thousands of miles again you don't.
Some say they are difficult or impossible to train they are also wrong .
What you have to do is agree to abide by their Rules , and if you or anyone else is interested get in touch and I will explain what is expected of the prospected owner of a KBGS ScentHound. What I will say now and this is a fact whatever you decide is fine with me, just make sure you are clear in your own mind what it is you want from your Deer dog as the BGS may not be the correct dog for you and your situation. The BGS is a COLD SCENT specialist not a hot or fresh sent dog there are other breeds much better suited to this type of work in fact most others are better suited to this type of use. The fact is not many on here believe a cold scent hound has a use here in the UK that's up to them this is a forum for debate and opinions does'nt mean they are right? or wrong ? just their opinion. So I hope you have a better idea of the difference between the two types sorry this is so long and it's not so simple as some think its not about looks.I personally and Wollverine and a few others believe the German way the best to ensure a working history not just one parent old but a hundred years, and strict health checks and training to a high standard to ensure as much as is possible all KBGS hounds are and can do what it says on the box.
Now at last can i say that if you are in the German camp we are accused of being on the high horse, arrogant, and insulting or to personal and boring everyone, well i hope your still reading or they may be right the management that is .As soon as we stand our corner they either bring up the two world wars maybe that's supposed to be funny but i dont think the growing number of German members will think so .Hope Jayb you don't take this personal but it's ok for 6pointed to be aggressive and personal in his post's and then you blame Wolverine,and say he is boring. This has got to be one of the best topics on here always gets a lot of interest from all sides of the fence. OH and 6Bellies or whatever I can misspell to.

What a well written balanced post on the subject for a change . . . . .

{Highlighted in red} - With this in mind, why on earth are so many people desperate for this breed then . . . Widu has just confirmed what I have thought for months . . . these are specialist hounds used for cold scent work, there can be no more than a handfull of people country wide who actually have suitable work for such a breed.

In the vast majority of cases {not all I hasten to add} BMH / HS have become nothing more than the latest stalking must have, call it stalking 'bling' if you wish !!!

 

[jamross65]

Woooaaaahh!!!

How come my name pops up in this when all I have been doing is reading the thread???!!!

Can I just clarify something. It is my opinion that the problem with UK stalkers when it comes to deer dogs is that they are not prepared to put in the work on a specialist scent dog because it is too restrictive in the way they have to be initially worked. Keeping a dog back from hot tracks until an experienced cold scent tracker takes a bit of discipline and like folk training gundogs, the sitting and staying bit and chucking several dummies for him to watch while I get them myself becomes boring so let's have fun in throwing a dozen retrieves for the young lab in 10mins and hay presto, one unsteady dog, but who cares because it was fun training him....

No doubt many would find walking hundreds of metres twice a week laying a track with scent shoes boring as well, so skip all the foundation work and jump to the exciting real life stuff and let them learn as they go along. Well bash on if that is what floats your boat because you will end up with a less capable dog for it.

What I said in relation to another dog, and used a GWP as an example, was that I could see the desirability in having both, for different scenarios and to prevent the chance of losing the sharp edge a tracking hound has on cold scents. Like any other dog in the country claimed as a deer dog, a BGS or HS could be worked on hot scent no problem. Do it in their sleep I was told. Whatbthatwill do however is lessen its ability to perform like they are capable of when tested on a cold scent a day old.

My pup is a year old this month and already has had 2 cold tracks, one 14hrs old and the other over 6hrs. She has also had 2 hot scent tracks plus all the training cold tracks obviously. The hot ones were not ideal but given for other reasons. The very next day the old GWP was out and she was left in the kennels for fear of needing her again on another hot track.

When she is older and experienced allowing her to work the occasional hot track will do no harm at all so it could be argued that in fact I do not need another dog as well, but if I have space and am still shooting enough deer to justify it I will have another dog for different applications. the problem is met when like gundogs the owners let the dogs retrieve all and every bird lying around them withing 20m. Why? Picknthem up yourself and make the dog steady by sitting watching. Well why let a deer dog off to run in and 'find' a beast that you can see lying there? But folk do....

I am going down the 'German' route of training and working because to me it makes perfect sense in producing what I hope will be a dog capable of finding the odd fresh shot beast (probably no more than a dozen times a year where a dog is actually needed) but will I know find the odd one that takes perhaps hours of tracking because of a poor shot. I am honest enough to admit to losing the odd beast because I did not have access to a dog that could do that over the years. By using the correct training methods hopefully that won't happen again.

That is why I went for a scenthound...

 

[Shabz]

Although one of these dogs would be of no use to me, if I was fortunate enough to have enough work for one, I would be going to the continent to get one. Whatever anybody says, a system so absolutely controlled can only be good. I'd be under no illusion that a German dog would be a guaranteed good'un, but I'd suspect that it'd have a far better chance of being so. Other than that, I'd only ever take a dog whose parents were well known to me.


If you do buy one of these continental dogs, do they have to be tested? Is that only to be allowed to breed?

I'm sticking to GWPs for the next ten or twenty years, but my next one might well be a drathaar from Denmark.

 

[Wolverine]

Cadex,spot on but also read Jamross's post,he's bang on as well.These dogs can be used for hot scent once tested.Nothing wrong with this,actually helps for the advanced test.
Shabz,this is the thing,owners and their dogs of these continental hounds are more than willing to test themselves and their dogs,this proves they know what they're talking about and the dog is a worker.If the dog/handler don't do well enough in the test=no breeding,there has to be a specific score in that test to be allowed to breed.Unlike the UK.....
Exact same reasons for everything as Jamross for getting a scenthound,training it properly as well...

 

[sikamalc]

I am of the opinion it all down to the person who is training the dog

My post was tongue in cheek It is very much down to the owner of each dog, I am well aware of that. However what I and many others on here are fed up with is those that consistantly rattle on about how poor BMH are that are not of German descent and how we all must adhere to a code that may well not be suited for the UK.

We all love and enjoy our dogs, but by god there are some very anal people when it comes to this subject

 

[jamross65]

If these posts are acceptable to Admin as long as they are kept polite and 'sociable' it must be a huge advantage to others wanting to learn more about working dogs for deer, which includes me.

There is information available for free (which is good for the Scotsmen and Yorkshiremen on here) by simply asking. It is then obviously up to the individual to decide what method or breed of dog is suitable for them.

Although a scenthound novice I would like to think I am capable after 25 years (not much to some, I know...) of training, breeding and working gundogs to know enough about it to see how a deer dog can be ruined or helped to excell in the same way a gundog can. I would go as far as saying that whilst the occasional dog is simply never going to be a great worker 9 out of 10 times a dog is poor because of the training (or lack of) and failings by the handler. I do not see that as being any different to training a scenthound or cold scent tracking dog of any breed for that matter. Follow a few basic principles consistently and the outcome will be a very capable dog, regardless of breed. Take short cuts and at some point the dog will fail, whether on a track, chasing deer, ignoring cold for hot scent, unable to complete a 12hr old track, whatever...

Only thing I personally get fed up of hearing is that 'things are different in the UK...' Tracking a deer or boar with a particular wound is the same anywhere in the world. Certain approaches are better than others. Only way to know what they are is to listen to folk that have the experience built up on success and failings over decades and countless tracks. And this is where I do agree that it is different I suppose, because with driven game they get the chance to learn what approach is best because simply, they get more practice...

To the OP, I think a BGS is a great dog for UK stalking, but install a few basic foundations in the training and it will tackle 99.9% of scenarios you will be faced with. Be disciplined in the training. It is not meant to be a fun day out for you, it is meant to be fun for the dog...

Cut corners and you would be as well with any other breed of dog you may choose to work on deer...

 

[Wolverine]

I agree with you Malcolm.
No one is rubbishing someone's ability to train one of these dogs or the dog itself,that is down to the handler to get the dog doing what they want it to do.
These dogs are suited to UK stalking,in fact better than any other,if you want to do cold tracks(wounded deer on call outs,there are none better)
There is a difference from what's available here to the continent,that's because of stricter working tests,health screening and conformation testing.Nobody to blame just the facts.
The bit I agree most on is that I and a few others are most definitely anal on this subject as we are passionate about it.Much the same as some reloaders or trophy hunters are.

 

[widu]

Hello All.
To answer Mereside first, to get the best from your BGS do not let it go to every fresh shot deer even if it takes 2 or ten minutes to find it.If you need s more in depth answer or any help please PM me then we can chat
Cadex, Thankyou, you also can see where I am coming from. That said these BGS hounds can be very versatile and if trained correctly to cold scent predominately in the first two years, till they have passed the Pre-test which is to make sure that the dog has that level of ability and the Handler then hot scent is not a problem. One must still continue to train and focus these dogs on the more difficult old , long , cold tracks.
Jamross65 (Brian)
As usual a very well balanced post especially the first paragraph. All who have or are interested in a scent hound should read it thoroughly and then again. the problem with many dog owners is they want to be seen to be seen, by mates or others as a dog man they believe by having a gun dog or scent hound that's it, they have arrived now folks will think they are a real shooting man or stalker . We all know as Brian points out that you have to do the work the boring and repetitive stuff if the dog going to be a real asset on the shoot or when asked to find a wounded deer in difficult circumstances.
Back to scent hounds, many think by just letting the dog go in straight away that's good enough well if that's what works for you fine all we are saying is that with cold scent training to start with and a bit of time spent on this you will end up with a much better all round working companion. Just dragging a whole skin or blathering blood out over whatever distance doe's not make a trained deer dog. Brian is right most just want to do the easy or more exiting stuff ( fresh shot/ scent) when out stalking. What I think we need is to take a step back and be honest with ourselves what is best for the dog not what is easiest or quickest. Maybe if one has a young scent hound and we have a deer down but not there. Why not ring someone with an older dog wait and then together work with the older dog leading use the situation in a way as to benefit you and your dog. Not always possible i realize that but a thought ? .We all i think need to talk there are some very good posters on this subject and I also understand that in the world of scent hounds / deer dogs, and stalking and following up wounded deer there are some contentious issues. I think this subject is far very far from being boring lads like Wolverine are passionate and wish to do it to the highest standards like myself, but I am not an expert just someone with the passion to see if I can get the best from my scent hound and out of me .We really should all try to meet at say the stalkers fair at Kelso that Brian is helping to organise. We could bring our dogs tracking gear, Gum shields, boxing gloves, etc. Seriously though to sit and and have a talk about it all we will all have the chance to learn something and make some new acquaintances.What do you think so long as 6pointer ain't there it will be quite civil, OH Davie just because you are against anyone with a lot more knowledge on the subject than you . Or wishes to do it the official German route doe's not make it wrong or right come to that each to his own. When you call wolverine or the continentals or me that's fine but just because you don't wish to go that route there is no need to post in such an aggressive way what does it achieve. I think all the pic's and vid's of your dog are just a precursor to an advert, puppies for sale ? may be wrong we will see. Anyway let's try to keep it all on an even keel with good posts and interesting debate that is how we can all help the Deerdog/Scenthounds and owners not by catcalling and ********. Bet if you were asked what the weather is like here you could guess it;s foggy.
Regards Widu.

 

[cookingfat]

it seems to me that the German test would require the dog to track a animal from a wounded bed at some point, this seems very similar to the advanced tracking test done on the Danish system, if this is so then your dog/hound needs to be able to track hot scent as well cold ones, as i said in a earlier post a dog that can cold scent can and has to do hot ones as well, training is key here, get you dog on the cold scents till it reaches a standerd then work the hot ones which the dog should do with ease.
sorry for being so anal about all this, but you only get out of a dog what you put in....!!

tony

 

[jamross65]

it seems to me that the German test would require the dog to track a animal from a wounded bed at some point, this seems very similar to the advanced tracking test done on the Danish system, if this is so then your dog/hound needs to be able to track hot scent as well cold ones, as i said in a earlier post a dog that can cold scent can and has to do hot ones as well, training is key here, get you dog on the cold scents till it reaches a standerd then work the hot ones which the dog should do with ease.
sorry for being so anal about all this, but you only get out of a dog what you put in....!!

tony

Summed up in 11 words, how true!!!

Like Widu says, I look forward to us all meeting up. I sit here and smile at the testosterone oozing out of some posts, puts the stag rut to shame. (at leat the Sika one, yet again for 2nd year running) It makes me laugh because I know several of the posters personally and class them as friends (from both camps) and have spoken to several others via PM and phone, and I am confident after meeting in person there will be a different 'atmosphere' evident in future discussions. Said it before, we all have too much in common to not get on over just one aspect of our sport...

 

[JAYB]

Hope Jayb you don't take this personal but it's ok for 6pointed to be aggressive and personal in his post's and then you blame Wolverine,and say he is boring. This has got to be one of the best topics on here always gets a lot of interest from all sides of the fence. OH and 6Bellies or whatever I can misspell to.

This is the first post that I recall that has put the argument for the German "way" across in a reasoned and structured manner giving reasons why it should be held as the benchmark for this breed. As opposed to being told that this is the only way and any other dogs are not up to the job, anything but boring but informative and helpful. Now I do not recall 6pointer being anymore aggressive or personal than anyone else on this thread, in fact Wolverine maintains it is banter amongst associates. As for boring, well as I said I do find it boring when the same old things are being said without any evidence to corroborate or substantiate them. Also remember this is a site read by a great many people and such posts will put people off of posting for fear that their posts will be savaged without any help being forthcoming. This in turn puts the site, which means it's members, in a very poor light.

John

Which is why I say your post is informative and helpful and in my opinion has done more for the German camp than all of the previous pro German posts put together.

 

[Gazza]

This is the first post that I recall that has put the argument for the German "way" across in a reasoned and structured manner giving reasons why it should be held as the benchmark for this breed. As opposed to being told that this is the only way and any other dogs are not up to the job, anything but boring but informative and helpful. Now I do not recall 6pointer being anymore aggressive or personal than anyone else on this thread, in fact Wolverine maintains it is banter amongst associates. As for boring, well as I said I do find it boring when the same old things are being said without any evidence to corroborate or substantiate them. Also remember this is a site read by a great many people and such posts will put people off of posting for fear that their posts will be savaged without any help being forthcoming. This in turn puts the site, which means it's members, in a very poor light.

John

Which is why I say your post is informative and helpful and in my opinion has done more for the German camp than all of the previous pro German posts put together.

+1 on that. An excellent post from somebody who really knows what they are talking about.

 

[jamross65]

+1 on that. An excellent post from somebody who really knows what they are talking about.

Well of course he does Gazza..... look where he received his mentoring.

(P.S. don't believe anything Nelly tells you, I have alibis for all the accusations. Lol)

 

[widu]

Thanks Jayb and others.
Also to GrantN , I bet your more confused now than before the OP. All I ask is that when it comes to Scent Hounds that we all keep an open mind because then we that is owners handlers hounds and Deer and Boar will benefit. Also look at the big picture what do those on the outside looking in see, there is much to learn when you take Scent hound work seriously. No one not even the top German HoundFuhrer with as much as Fifty + years and many thousands of natural tracks, or Controls as they say will ever say he knows it all. This is a very complicated subject and many books have been published on Scent, and tracking shame most are in German as there would be some great reading if someone would translate them into English.
I think and this is my opinion most would like to do more with their Scent Hound, not all admittedly will have the time or interest but maybe at Kelso we can at least talk and at least agree to differ at worst, or listen and learn at best.
One little thing Jayb, about posting comments that might put folks off or show the site in a bad light comments from Malk about the Germans and the two wars are so so poor taste and surely do not encourage the German guys who have much experience in scenthounds and I can personally vouch for there interest on what is said on here. Also through S D I have been to Germany to meet one such poster he is a great guy with much hunting experience and seriously into the Scent Hound work. He is also a Real Gentleman, so let's move forward with this and the tacky war quotes that do nothing to show SD in the light you wish it to be seen.
Lets enjoy the tracking that is what these dogs are meant to do , i am willing to help anyone with advise , and If anyone has a lost or wounded deer that you need help with , within reason I don't mind coming to help , with my European Elitist Scent Hound and my German pro attitude and training. If we can help we will you only have to get in touch.Not saying we will always find your beast but we can sure give it a bloody good try.
Regards Widu.

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Thanks Jayb and others.
Also to GrantN , I bet your more confused now than before the OP. All I ask is that when it comes to Scent Hounds that we all keep an open mind because then we that is owners handlers hounds and Deer and Boar will benefit. Also look at the big picture what do those on the outside looking in see, there is much to learn when you take Scent hound work seriously. No one not even the top German HoundFuhrer with as much as Fifty + years and many thousands of natural tracks, or Controls as they say will ever say he knows it all. This is a very complicated subject and many books have been published on Scent, and tracking shame most are in German as there would be some great reading if someone would translate them into English.
I think and this is my opinion most would like to do more with their Scent Hound, not all admittedly will have the time or interest but maybe at Kelso we can at least talk and at least agree to differ at worst, or listen and learn at best.
One little thing Jayb, about posting comments that might put folks off or show the site in a bad light comments from Malk about the Germans and the two wars are so so poor taste and surely do not encourage the German guys who have much experience in scenthounds and I can personally vouch for there interest on what is said on here. Also through S D I have been to Germany to meet one such poster he is a great guy with much hunting experience and seriously into the Scent Hound work. He is also a Real Gentleman, so let's move forward with this and the tacky war quotes that do nothing to show SD in the light you wish it to be seen.
Lets enjoy the tracking that is what these dogs are meant to do , i am willing to help anyone with advise , and If anyone has a lost or wounded deer that you need help with , within reason I don't mind coming to help , with my European Elitist Scent Hound and my German pro attitude and training. If we can help we will you only have to get in touch.Not saying we will always find your beast but we can sure give it a bloody good try.
Regards Widu.

And if WIDU can't find it, phone me and i'll find it with a proper dog

 

[Wolverine]

This is the first post that I recall that has put the argument for the German "way" across in a reasoned and structured manner giving reasons why it should be held as the benchmark for this breed. As opposed to being told that this is the only way and any other dogs are not up to the job, anything but boring but informative and helpful. Now I do not recall 6pointer being anymore aggressive or personal than anyone else on this thread, in fact Wolverine maintains it is banter amongst associates. As for boring, well as I said I do find it boring when the same old things are being said without any evidence to corroborate or substantiate them. Also remember this is a site read by a great many people and such posts will put people off of posting for fear that their posts will be savaged without any help being forthcoming. This in turn puts the site, which means it's members, in a very poor light.

John

Which is why I say your post is informative and helpful and in my opinion has done more for the German camp than all of the previous pro German posts put together.

I'd agree John,better put together than all other posts on the subject,a way in which we have been trying(in vain)to put across.There is evidence and corroboration that this system works well.Widus post substantiates this and so does the results of the KBGS and the VH.
Banter is fine John,not a problem with it at all,sometimes it does get a bit heated but all for the good of trying to educate people that there are choices out there.Nothing less or more.
On no account do we mean to put people off posting or approaching us for help.This is what is happening John,people approaching us asking for help,we will always attempt to help when we can,if not,there are Continentals who can through us.This has been happening for a considerable time now as well.Polish,Slovakian BGS or any other type of dog/handler wishing to learn how to track in a certain way,which will help the dog find deer.
SD is a brilliant site and we definitely don't want to bring it into disrepute.Or any of its members.
If I have being doing so with my blunt manner I unreservedly apologise.
The written word,as I've said before,can easily be misconstrued when meaning something completely different.Especially when it's so hard to change ones thought processes,ie I see things quite black and white.Right or wrong,it is of course as you rightly state just my opinion.An opinion built on through experience though,thus why I see it as correct,like a Clydesdale with blinkers on.
These dogs are treasures to be worked to as high a standard as is possible,why get a specialist otherwise.Sure they look nice but so do other breeds that can/will do a job for a lot of UK stalkers.Doesnt mean every one needs one.If you want one fine.Do your research,that's all we're saying.
Regards George

 

[6pointer]

Great Post WIDU well done pity you could not have wrote that a few months back lol. With regards people knowing more than me thats what learning is about and i am always willing to learn and always trying to improve my self and my stalking. I also think you will find me quite civil and very easy to get on with if we meet at the Deer Fair i do have strong opinions regards my deer dogs as do others that's because they are mine and work the way i want. If they did not i would not give them house room.
I also see your personal attack on my placement of pictures or videos on the site seeing it as an advertising campaign tut tut. I have been placing pictures up since the start of the Internet many of my terriers then of my Two HWV, Buck getting the most publications and i have never made a Pennie from him. If they offend you or any one else i apologize but will continue to post unless admin ask me to stop.
The way RIA has been trained suits my purpose and many many other peoples.!