Clients letting people down

[Cut+Squirt]

We are in the midst of a recession . . .just be glad the bookings are still coming in without bleating on about tips.

Call me a tight Scottish bastward but the only tip I ever gave was for my first red stag. If paying for guided stalking, which I only do once a year, I expect to know at the start of the day how much it is going to cost.

I don't like this 'missed shot charge' - 'Damaged meat charge' - 'shot up the brown eye charge' - ok, fair doos I would pay up for that one

I'm not the richest man in Scotland and need to budget for my stalking, I can't budget if I don't know what im going to be asked to pay for at the end of the day.

If prices arn't up front and tips are expected I won't book.

 

[Psyxologos]

We are in the midst of a recession . . .just be glad the bookings are still coming in without bleating on about tips.

Call me a tight Scottish bastward but the only tip I ever gave was for my first red stag. If paying for guided stalking, which I only do once a year, I expect to know at the start of the day how much it is going to cost.

I don't like this 'missed shot charge' - 'Damaged meat charge' - 'shot up the brown eye charge' - ok, fair doos I would pay up for that one

I'm not the richest man in Scotland and need to budget for my stalking, I can't budget if I don't know what im going to be asked to pay for at the end of the day.

If prices arn't up front and tips are expected I won't book.

Well said!

 

[Erik Hamburger]

The problem would be solved if you write up clear T&C's (Terms and Conditions) and introduce a Deposit and Cancellation Fee policy, and make sure the clients gets a Copy before they part with their money. It is a pretty standard business practice for many other service-providers.
It would also be nice if professionals give their prospective clients an honest idea of the change of success of seeing deer, getting guided within a shootable safe position, and successful culls.
The professional guide who also offers a refund or discount on future bookings if no deer has been seen or no suitable shootable position has been reached would find himself in high demand.

Win win, clients and profs.

 

[jamross65]

The problem would be solved if you write up clear T&C's (Terms and Conditions) and introduce a Deposit and Cancellation Fee policy, and make sure the clients gets a Copy before they part with their money. It is a pretty standard business practice for many other service-providers.
It would also be nice if professionals give their prospective clients an honest idea of the change of success of seeing deer, getting guided within a shootable safe position, and successful culls.
The professional guide who also offers a refund or discount on future bookings if no deer has been seen or no suitable shootable position has been reached would find himself in high demand.

Win win, clients and profs.

So let me get this right, on average whether guided or not, lets assume the success rate on stalking deer is about 1 for 3 visits, so if a guest pays for one day and gets nothing, a guide is to offer another 2 free days to ensure success?

I will suggest that to all the owners of the beats on rivers I fish so that if I don't catch a salmon they will allow me to come back for free...

At best, all you can say to a guest is that there are enough deer on the ground to know that if everything goes according to plan we have a good chance of getting a shot. No more...

I had a guest out yesterday for hinds and he never saw a beast. I only saw 5. very quiet in the heavy snow fall. He was invited back for a free afternoon in a high seat later next month. But to write that in to T&C's or a guarantee of success???

 

[6pointer]

There are no guarantees but cancellations are a part of life and while this a stalking site it will apply here also. You only need to work it in to your budget the way insurance companies do and you are quids in.

 

[Pine Marten]

Frankly if there was a guarantee of success, you wouldn't feel particularly proud of succeeding. It would be a bit "Pick your own strawberries"...

 

[mereside]

The problem would be solved if you write up clear T&C's (Terms and Conditions) and introduce a Deposit and Cancellation Fee policy, and make sure the clients gets a Copy before they part with their money. It is a pretty standard business practice for many other service-providers.
It would also be nice if professionals give their prospective clients an honest idea of the change of success of seeing deer, getting guided within a shootable safe position, and successful culls.
The professional guide who also offers a refund or discount on future bookings if no deer has been seen or no suitable shootable position has been reached would find himself in high demand.

Win win, clients and profs.

Ha Ha im sure the guide would be in high demand as it would mean giving away round two free stalks.
one of the reasons i started stalking was to be challenged and still is . Other factors come into it but if i was garaunteed to get deer every outing i would probably loose all interest in the stalking . The stalking i tend to go for is hard stalks , if i go to someones ground and i am given the choice i pick the ones that will challange me . Dont get me wrong if i happen opon a deer and it fits the bill its going down as i have learned to take the opertunities when they come along but like wise i do want a cracking stalk any chance i get, atb wayne
ps as for getting let down i find it bad form to cancel just because you feel your chances will be diminished, fair play if there is a proper reason you have to cancel but the guides have lost a days pay if know body turns up how many could stand that if they lost a days wages .

 

[Cut+Squirt]

So let me get this right, on average whether guided or not, lets assume the success rate on stalking deer is about 1 for 3 visits, so if a guest pays for one day and gets nothing, a guide is to offer another 2 free days to ensure success?

I will suggest that to all the owners of the beats on rivers I fish so that if I don't catch a salmon they will allow me to come back for free...

At best, all you can say to a guest is that there are enough deer on the ground to know that if everything goes according to plan we have a good chance of getting a shot. No more...

I had a guest out yesterday for hinds and he never saw a beast. I only saw 5. very quiet in the heavy snow fall. He was invited back for a free afternoon in a high seat later next month. But to write that in to T&C's or a guarantee of success???

And I think thats quite a generous figure Jammy, sometimes throughout the summer when follage is high it could be many more outings . . .irrelevant of how hard the guide tries.

 

[Taff]

Frankly if there was a guarantee of success, you wouldn't feel particularly proud of succeeding. It would be a bit "Pick your own strawberries"...

Why would you not feel proud, being a good stalker , not over shooting ground, you should be able to show a client deer every time. A stalker off this site came to one of my permissions and in his words " you could bring a gun here every day" which I pointed out, that he would not have shoot two deer on his morning stalk if that was the case.
Jamross would you fish a river with no fish in it,

 

[jamross65]

And I think thats quite a generous figure Jammy, sometimes throughout the summer when follage is high it could be many more outings . . .irrelevant of how hard the guide tries.

Exactly!

If a guest is fit enough and up for the walk, I will be all over the ground trying to find them a beast to shoot if that is what would offer the best chance.

I don't think guests mind too much if they don't get a shot on every visit, as long as it is evident there are at least deer there to offer a fair chance. And is that not what it is all about, fair chance from a fair chase? Or has that ethic in hunting now gone like some folk new to trout fishing whinging if they don't 'bag up' (God I hate that expression) every time they are out.

Which kind of goes back to what Wayne was saying, that if it was too easy and no challenge, what is the point.

That figure of 1 in 3 was really just by way of an example, becasue it would go up a tad on sika hinds in December!!!

The following was an article I came across about defining hunting and all it entails. There is also reference made to what is a 'fair chase'. It is well worth the read and one of the best in summing up what we do. It is also worth baring in mind the content of this article when a trigger is not pulled at the end of a day, becasue hunting means so much more than that one action...

So I suppose what the question really should be is, 'is it worth paying for this experience, and not whether or not I shoot anything...'

http://www.africahunting.com/content/2-reflections-about-fair-chase-430/

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Why would you not feel proud, being a good stalker , not over shooting ground, you should be able to show a client deer every time. A stalker off this site came to one of my permissions and in his words " you could bring a gun here every day" which I pointed out, that he would not have shoot two deer on his morning stalk if that was the case.
Jamross would you fish a river with no fish in it,

You must stalk in a deer park Taff.

 

[Taff]

Depends how big your park is mine is the new forest, showing them deer and them managing to stalk one are two different things, but usually we are successful, I don,t do it for a living, or charge but the more I talk to other stalkers the more you hear of people, being shall we say mildly having the pxxs taken out of them.

 

[jamross65]

Why would you not feel proud, being a good stalker , not over shooting ground, you should be able to show a client deer every time. A stalker off this site came to one of my permissions and in his words " you could bring a gun here every day" which I pointed out, that he would not have shoot two deer on his morning stalk if that was the case.
Jamross would you fish a river with no fish in it,

Ha ha, I fish for salmon, booked well in advance. I will let you decide what the answer to that is. I have also fished for them when the water is literally stuffed with fish. And caught nothing. Was I upset? Not in the slightest. Not even frustrated. Maybe that is just me becasue over and above not catching anything, I had a fantastic day out. And I could not even begin to guess at the number of days fishing I have booked over the years for it to be spoilt by the weather and conditions alone. Even turned up for a day to not even get the rod out becasue of the height of the water...

I would think that on my ground and the estates round us, short of park deer there will be one of the highest densities of sika per acreage in Scotland. I can see up to about 100 deer in one go without moving from my spot I am spying from and I am only looking at a fraction of the ground available. That means nothing on the day you are out with a guest if they have other ideas! Sika are in my experience the most unpredictable of the species I have shot (red, roe and a few fallow). Personally, I have had about 6 fruitless visits to my rifle over the last couple of weeks although friends have picked up the odd one. I have been sending them to where I think they will be but that does not guarantee anything. Different success, at different times of the season has to be borne in mind...

 

[BunnyDoom]

Why would you not feel proud, being a good stalker , not over shooting ground, you should be able to show a client deer every time. A stalker off this site came to one of my permissions and in his words " you could bring a gun here every day" which I pointed out, that he would not have shoot two deer on his morning stalk if that was the case.
Jamross would you fish a river with no fish in it,

You must stalk in a deer park Taff.

Nope Taff just has a good amount of ground that he doesn't hammer to death in the name if profit! He knows his ground, has enough of it, and doesn't overshoot it. It's more like 3 deer per stalk than 3 stalks per deer! - the more I learn the more I realise that some stalkers/outfits simply don't have the land/deer to warrant taking paying guests, especially at the rates they're asking! £100-150 per outing with a 1:3 success rate = £300-450 per shot... Bonkers!!!

I appreciate not all land is that rich, but if I ever went on a paid stalk and didn't even see a deer then I'd wonder what the point in me paying someone to take me was - it's the stalkers job to put me near one (though if I don't get a safe shot then that can just be bad luck, or me being too slow).

Anyone who's happy to pay £100-150 to not even see a deer 2 out of 3 times is earning too much money

If anyone reading this is happy to pay £100 a go to not see/shoot deer then I've plenty of ground with no deer on it that I'd be happy to take them and their rifle for a walk around

 

[jamross65]

1 in 3 success rate was a hypothetical figure to allow an answer to be given to another question.

Bunnydoom, yours is a far too generalised a response. You could go out on the hill for stags at £400 per day and never get a shot in October because you are in a white out! Yet the next day there are dozens to choose from in glorious sunshine! I had heavy rain on more than half the days I was stalking with guests in 2011.

Different species also have an effect on the success rate.

Who wants to walk into a wood and shoot a munty in 10mins and an hour later be back in the car driving home? That is when I would feel hard done by!!!

Trust me. success does not just come from having a lot of deer on your ground and thinking you know where they will be...

 

[Erik Hamburger]

So let me get this right, on average whether guided or not, lets assume the success rate on stalking deer is about 1 for 3 visits, so if a guest pays for one day and gets nothing, a guide is to offer another 2 free days to ensure success?

I will suggest that to all the owners of the beats on rivers I fish so that if I don't catch a salmon they will allow me to come back for free...

At best, all you can say to a guest is that there are enough deer on the ground to know that if everything goes according to plan we have a good chance of getting a shot. No more...

I had a guest out yesterday for hinds and he never saw a beast. I only saw 5. very quiet in the heavy snow fall. He was invited back for a free afternoon in a high seat later next month. But to write that in to T&C's or a guarantee of success???

You are misinterpreting my suggestion.

Your T&C's should clearly state there is no guarantee of seeing deer, getting within a shootable position, or culling, and naturally you should be paid for your time and skills.
What I suggest, as a business strategy, is that if your client has a blank day for whatever reason (nothing seen, couldn't shoot anything, very averse weather conditions) you would place yourself into a position of long-term sustainable business growth by offering that client some kind of discount or incentive to come back to you, and try another day.
I (as someone who has and still is using prof. stalkers to guide him) would admire the man who tells me in advance that the success rate on his land, on average, is 33%. Because than I know what I am buying, I accept the risk.

To illustrate my point, my first ever guided stalking day with a well-known stalker on a famous Estate costs me £240. We did not even see a deer. I paid the agreed fee of £240, but I would have come back and booked more if this man had made some kind of gesture such as a small discount on my next Stalk. He didn't, and I left with a slightly sour taste in my mouth. In particular when he texted me the next day to tell me his next client, the next day, dropped two within an hour

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Chaps, with the best will in the world the shooting of a deer depends of luck as well as skill. It's always good to give a guest a look at deer and if they shoot one that's a bonus. But people are going on about cost? A stalkers experience and time is certainly worth no less than £20/hour easy when working with a guest, especially those with weaker field craft. The privilege of shooting a deer under the supervision of such a guide is a different thing and how much is that experience or trophy worth? Now work out 9 hours of actual stalking and tell me what it's worth before a beast is shot. If it's your job then it needs to pay the bills and there's lots of them.

Luck remember is a big part of actually shooting deer

 

[jamross65]

You are misinterpreting my suggestion.

Your T&C's should clearly state there is no guarantee of seeing deer, getting within a shootable position, or culling, and naturally you should be paid for your time and skills.
What I suggest, as a business strategy, is that if your client has a blank day for whatever reason (nothing seen, couldn't shoot anything, very averse weather conditions) you would place yourself into a position of long-term sustainable business growth by offering that client some kind of discount or incentive to come back to you, and try another day.
I (as someone who has and still is using prof. stalkers to guide him) would admire the man who tells me in advance that the success rate on his land, on average, is 33%. Because than I know what I am buying, I accept the risk.

To illustrate my point, my first ever guided stalking day with a well-known stalker on a famous Estate costs me £240. We did not even see a deer. I paid the agreed fee of £240, but I would have come back and booked more if this man had made some kind of gesture such as a small discount on my next Stalk. He didn't, and I left with a slightly sour taste in my mouth. In particular when he texted me the next day to tell me his next client, the next day, dropped two within an hour

Erik

To be fair you highlight the reason why percentages should not be given as most guests are going to fall into the remaining 77% category if we base this on 1 in 3. And all that does is focus on pulling a trigger and nothing else to be gained from a days stalking. What I will often say when asked is that if they are looking for a nice stag, 3 days should hopefully get us it. Of course once Itis shot I allow them to continue stalking for the remainder of the time booked to shoot any cull stags at my discretion. That way a success Onthe first day means no more costs incurred for the remaining time booked. That fair?

If anyone turns up expecting to shoot deer on every single outing I quite honestly don't think I would want them stalking with me. That is different to hoping I get them a deer on every single outing.

By the way, I only charge £75 for a day at Sika hinds. You could have had 3 days and a nights B&B up here and the likelihood of getting a shot for that £240!

 

[Cut+Squirt]

Nope Taff just has a good amount of ground that he doesn't hammer to death in the name if profit! He knows his ground, has enough of it, and doesn't overshoot it. It's more like 3 deer per stalk than 3 stalks per deer! - the more I learn the more I realise that some stalkers/outfits simply don't have the land/deer to warrant taking paying guests, especially at the rates they're asking! £100-150 per outing with a 1:3 success rate = £300-450 per shot... Bonkers!!!

I appreciate not all land is that rich, but if I ever went on a paid stalk and didn't even see a deer then I'd wonder what the point in me paying someone to take me was - it's the stalkers job to put me near one (though if I don't get a safe shot then that can just be bad luck, or me being too slow).

Anyone who's happy to pay £100-150 to not even see a deer 2 out of 3 times is earning too much money

If anyone reading this is happy to pay £100 a go to not see/shoot deer then I've plenty of ground with no deer on it that I'd be happy to take them and their rifle for a walk around

Thats a pretty good cull ratio buddy . . . it must be the finest of ground to support those kind of numbers. . . i'm glad i'm not a guide, as some peoples expectations are

 

[Taff]

Jamross I know we are talking about two different types of stalking, if you said to me we're after a good stag I might expect to take three days to get him out on the hill, but if in the time we did not see any deer at all I might be upset, what we are seeing down south is stalkers stuck up high seats left for three hrs and charged for it, even put in fields with dog walkers so no chance of a shot and told that's stalking. Slowly the word is getting around, I don,t think there was one person at the meeting before Christmas who didn't have a horror story.
cadex is being able to see a deer unreasonable.
Bunny might of over estimated my abilitys, all I got this morning was a fox