Becoming an Approved Witness for DSC L2

[Uncle Norm]

I have been thinking about the possibility of becoming an approved witness. I made an initial enquiry with Peter Marshall of BASC and received a helpful response from Peter and his colleague, but have taken it no further at present. I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure.

I am a recreational (but regular) stalker and have as much stalking opportunity as I would wish for and can cope with. I have no interest in other's stalking ground.

I would not be offering stalking, so anyone that I witnessed for, would need to provide the ground etc. I would not make a charge other than for diesel and my motivation would be simply to help those who wish to achieve DSC Level 2.

I was very fortunate in the support I received in the past and thought this may be a way of helping others ?


I would appreciate it if those members who have knowledge and experience of becoming (and maintaining the status of) an approved witness, could comment and advise please. Do most candidates need to have the day's stalking provided etc. ? Do you think that there would be much take up, bearing in mind that I live near Peterborough, which is not exactly the stalking capital of the UK ?

 

[sws]

Uncle Norm,I think you know that two of us at least would take you up on witnessing- although it might reduce the banter on Saturday mornings!

 

[prometheus]

From my experience most candidates don't have their own ground uncle norm. It's also true to say that there are many AW's that don't have access to ground that they could take candidates out on too. The system needs both to make it viable and available to all.

 

[sikamalc]

I would echo what Prometheus has written. Many canidiates do not have access to their own ground, in fact I have personally never witnessed anyone on their own ground yet.

You would need to make sure that you are available to attend any further meetings after your initial consultation to become an AW, and you will also need two referees who are AW's.

It can and is very rewarding work, although it is suprising how many people put in for their Level 2 without the appropraite experience and knowledge.

ATB

 

[DAThornley]

yes i have been thinking of going down that route of becoming an approved witness, do you need two witnesses to recommend you first? also can you still do the day course with David Stretton for guidance on filling in the forms correctly? look forward to more replies and any info greatly received

 

[DAThornley]

is there a form or applicaion you have to fill in or send up? and where are these odtained from DMQ? basc? thanks Dean

 

[Monkey Spanker]

There is a whole host of information and required forms and guidance in the witnesses download section of the DMQ website here:

http://www.dmq.org.uk/download.htm

MS

 

[baguio]

It can and is very rewarding work, although it is surprising how many people put in for their Level 2 without the appropriate experience and knowledge.
ATB

I don't think it's surprising at all. When people are paying ITRO £100+ per stalk then getting enough experience is going to cost a lot of money. It's therefore only natural that people are going to go for it sooner rather than later. After all, what have they got to lose? If the AW turns it into a lesson as they should then the candidate gains additional experience and knowledge. If they fail to meet the standard in an area the AW is sure to put them right and they get at least some of an ICR signed off. It might all go well and the whole ICR is signed off. Nothing lost only gains and often for the same money as the stalk would have cost them anyway! That's how I see it anyway!

 

[DAThornley]

thanks for the link MS, downloading the forms now but it seams to be taking ages

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I don't think enough emphasis is given on the DSC 1 course as a 'look forward' to DSC 2. I know it is briefly discussed on the BDS course and it states at the very back of the manual that
Enrolment for DSC 2 should only be considered when a student has gained some experience in stalking, shooting and dealing with carcasses. It also suggests that students are advised to gain experience with at least 6 carcasses prior to considering DSC 2. I also had a student who had done his DSC 1 training with another major provider who said he was advised to register for DSC 2 straight away and assumed that his next three subsequent stalks would suffice for DSC 2!
It is very difficult to quantify when a student is ready though as merely going out and shooting 6 deer may well be 'experience', but it might not impart the required standards or knowledge which would be gained by shooting the same 6 deer in the company of an AW or similarly experienced guide.
An awful lot of first DSC 2 stalks undoubtedly turn into a training session with an AW as Baguio has suggested above. However, nothing is lost as it is time well spent. It may also suggest that a 'mock' trip out with an experienced stalker is the way forward for those who maybe uncertain of their ability?
I have recently filmed several succesful DSC 2 stalks and may look at releasing footage as a guide to those looking to go down that route.
MS

 

[sikamalc]

I don't think it's surprising at all. When people are paying ITRO £100+ per stalk then getting enough experience is going to cost a lot of money. It's therefore only natural that people are going to go for it sooner rather than later. After all, what have they got to lose? If the AW turns it into a lesson as they should then the candidate gains additional experience and knowledge. If they fail to meet the standard in an area the AW is sure to put them right and they get at least some of an ICR signed off. It might all go well and the whole ICR is signed off. Nothing lost only gains and often for the same money as the stalk would have cost them anyway! That's how I see it anyway!

Well its up to the candidate if they want to pay £100 per stalk

I have had a few people asked to be taken out who have shot no more than 3 or 4 deer, thats not enough to gain the relevant experience. However if they want to come out with me as a full time stalker and pay £75 an outing for me to access as to their being ready to undertake Level 2 thats not a problem either for me. Some have taken their level 1 and passed without even taking a deer, thats no unusual, but then they feel the need to go straight onto Level 2, its then only right to point out to them that it is wasting their time to try and pass it without a certain level of experience.

 

[timbrayford]

It can and is very rewarding work, although it is suprising how many people put in for their Level 2 without the appropraite experience and knowledge.

ATB

Looking at this from the candidates perspective until you register for DSC2 you have no real way of knowing quite what is expected of you. atb Tim

 

[widows son]

From my experience most candidates don't have their own ground uncle norm. It's also true to say that there are many AW's that don't have access to ground that they could take candidates out on too. The system needs both to make it viable and available to all.

I would echo what Prometheus has written. Many canidiates do not have access to their own ground, in fact I have personally never witnessed anyone on their own ground yet.



You would need to make sure that you are available to attend any further meetings after your initial consultation to become an AW, and you will also need two referees who are AW's.

It can and is very rewarding work, although it is suprising how many people put in for their Level 2 without the appropraite experience and knowledge.

ATB

Well gents if they dont have there "own ground" they shouldn't have a firearms certificate, as that is one of the baring criteria to hold a rifle .
Ive had this a load of times, I'm quite happy to shoot my own deer.

I'll travel to their ground if they havent got a number of deer on the ground, why are they even asking a AW to come out to the land ,it is for the level two candidate to know what, when, where and why the deer are on the land ,all part of the process of the level two certificate , if you cannot find them, you cannot stalk and shoot them and cannot get the write up done .

 

[widows son]

From my experience most candidates don't have their own ground uncle norm. It's also true to say that there are many AW's that don't have access to ground that they could take candidates out on too. The system needs both to make it viable and available to all.

I would echo what Prometheus has written. Many canidiates do not have access to their own ground, in fact I have personally never witnessed anyone on their own ground yet.

You would need to make sure that you are available to attend any further meetings after your initial consultation to become an AW, and you will also need two referees who are AW's.

It can and is very rewarding work, although it is suprising how many people put in for their Level 2 without the appropraite experience and knowledge.

ATB

Looking at this from the candidates perspective until you register for DSC2 you have no real way of knowing quite what is expected of you. atb Tim

oh yes you have look up the web site it has all the information on it .as has your level one book as the level two is only a practical assessment of the level one

 

[timbrayford]

oh yes you have look up the web site it has all the information on it .as has your level one book as the level two is only a practical assessment of the level one

That's all very well, once you've done DSC 1 you've proved that you know all the theory but there is a huge gap to bridge between going on guided stalks with someone you may have not met before on ground unfamiliar to you and being expected to confidently lead a stalk under similar conditions.

Advice and hands on guidance from an AW is IMO invaluable but its only after you register for DSC 2 that you can get hold of the AW list and supporting documentation. The candidate is then in a much better position to find an AW that suits their own particular circumstances.

The challenges posed by DSC2 to recreational stalkers who may have the expense of purchasing their stalking based on each individual outing does IMO favour registering sooner rather than later. atb Tim

 

[sikamalc]

Well gents if they dont have there "own ground" they shouldn't have a firearms certificate, as that is one of the baring criteria to hold a rifle .
Ive had this a load of times, I'm quite happy to shoot my own deer.

I'll travel to their ground if they havent got a number of deer on the ground, why are they even asking a AW to come out to the land ,it is for the level two candidate to know what, when, where and why the deer are on the land ,all part of the process of the level two certificate , if you cannot find them, you cannot stalk and shoot them and cannot get the write up done .

Not quite sure were your first comment comes from There are many FA owners who do not have their own ground to stalk deer on. For instance I have had several people who own a firearm and belong to a rifle club, and have then put in for a variation to stalk deer. I have also had clients who because of their lifestyle and work commitments prefer to book all their stalking and do not have the time to commit to managing their own ground. This does not make them unsuitable to own a rifle.

As I have already pointed out, some candidates feel the need to go straight into Level 2 after attaining their Level 1. This is fine as long as they have enough experience and can perform what is required of them to a satisfactory standard. If not they should always be welcome to come out and learn and ask whatever questions they like of any AW.

ATB

 

[widows son]

That's all very well, once you've done DSC 1 you've proved that you know all the theory but there is a huge gap to bridge between going on guided stalks with someone you may have not met before on ground unfamiliar to you and being expected to confidently lead a stalk under similar conditions.

Advice and hands on guidance from an AW is IMO invaluable but its only after you register for DSC 2 that you can get hold of the AW list and supporting documentation. The candidate is then in a much better position to find an AW that suits their own particular circumstances.

The challenges posed by DSC2 to recreational stalkers who may have the expense of purchasing their stalking based on each individual outing does IMO favour registering sooner rather than later. atb Tim

Tim the criteria states that there is no help from the AW, you should have completed all your own preperations no matter where or who belongs to the land ,IE from method statement to a self risk assessment ,the AW is only there to observe and ask the co-joining questions to the element you are working on .

If he or they are passing you information other than safety point appertaining to the lands you are on , you are not ready for a level 2 certificate ,as your knowledge of your species and use of equipment should be up to scratch .

This is the very reason you have three years to complete the level two portfolio ,practice makes perfect every time ,Ive had clients ask me how, I would like to see the gralloch mmmmm on the grass, everyone does thing differently so to pin someone down for not doing someones text book gralloch is hardly the correct way around things, the level two is about how you conduct yourself ,working within safe constraints as per best practice requirements .

Their are far to many people want to collect bits of paper to quickly, the level one shows the theory and the level two the practical, nothing more or less than that ,it then allows the holder to apply for ground if the criteria for that land so requires it .

Not quite sure were your first comment comes from There are many FA owners who do not have their own ground to stalk deer on. For instance I have had several people who own a firearm and belong to a rifle club, and have then put in for a variation to stalk deer. I have also had clients who because of their lifestyle and work commitments prefer to book all their stalking and do not have the time to commit to managing their own ground. This does not make them unsuitable to own a rifle.

As I have already pointed out, some candidates feel the need to go straight into Level 2 after attaining their Level 1. This is fine as long as they have enough experience and can perform what is required of them to a satisfactory standard. If not they should always be welcome to come out and learn and ask whatever questions they like of any AW.

ATB

Malcolm if you apply for a rifle to shoot deer in Scotland you require the lands on which to stalk, you will not get it for a yearly lease either, it has been tried on several occasions and picked up on by the police every time, that goes for those you mentioned that so called dont have the where for or lifestyle ,the police will tell them hire an estate weapon as many do.

Ive had these point brought up to me on many an occasion for members of my syndicates who wish to get variations, moderated clauses removed etc Mainly by the English constabularies as those in scotland have open certificates thus cutting out on hassle for the FLO over the last 30 something years my certificate has always had the lands i shoot over on it at each time the police always contact the land owner to clarify that .

By some of the phone calls ive taken on behalf of syndicate members, the police forces in England run an even tighter ship, than those in Scotland asking for maps and details of the lands for open certificates and variations.

 

[timbrayford]

Tim the criteria states that there is no help from the AW, you should have completed all your own preperations no matter where or who belongs to the land ,IE from method statement to a self risk assessment ,the AW is only there to observe and ask the co-joining questions to the element you are working on .

If he or they are passing you information other than safety point appertaining to the lands you are on , you are not ready for a level 2 certificate ,as your knowledge of your species and use of equipment should be up to scratch .

This is the very reason you have three years to complete the level two portfolio ,practice makes perfect every time ,Ive had clients ask me how, I would like to see the gralloch mmmmm on the grass, everyone does thing differently so to pin someone down for not doing someones text book gralloch is hardly the correct way around things, the level two is about how you conduct yourself ,working within safe constraints as per best practice requirements .

Their are far to many people want to collect bits of paper to quickly, the level one shows the theory and the level two the practical, nothing more or less than that ,it then allows the holder to apply for ground if the criteria for that land so requires it .

Yes, but what I am saying is that there is for many recreational stalkers a transitional period between passing the theory based DSC 1 to moving on to the DSC2 practical assessments and IMO the most advantageous way of doing this is to register for DSC2 and start off by receiving practical instruction from an AW ahead of moving onto the witnessed stalks. atb Tim

 

[Tackleberry270]

Yes, but what I am saying is that there is for many recreational stalkers a transitional period between passing the theory based DSC 1 to moving on to the DSC2 practical assessments and IMO the most advantageous way of doing this is to register for DSC2 and start off by receiving practical instruction from an AW ahead of moving onto the witnessed stalks. atb Tim

I can see where you are coming from here Tim but how many candidates sign up for DSC2 and then ask for pre-DSC2 instruction? Or how many go on the stalks to 'see' how they get on? This puts the AW in an awkward position as no decent person wants to tell someone they are not up to scratch. There is no requirement for an AW to provide instruction in the event of a candidate not having the skills or knowledge.

Perhaps the AW list ought to be available to anyone interested in the DSC2.

 

[baguio]

Perhaps the AW list ought to be available to anyone interested in the DSC2.

I don't think so! By having to pay £105 for the list it stops antis getting hold of it for free! It's already far too easy for antis to hassle us without AW's getting unwanted phone calls from the idiots day and night.