150gr ballisitic tips in .308

[Mungo]

I'd be grateful for people's experience with any 150gr .308 ammo with ballistic tips.

I shot the first roe with my recently acquired .308 this weekend. 150gr Norma with BTs.

Front on chest shot at around 80 yards. Point of entry where the neck meets the chest.

Dropped instantly. On inital inspection, just a small entry wound and no exit.

On butchering, it looked like a hand grenade had gone off in the chest cavity. One shoulder more or less came away with the skin, blown away from the inside. Spine was severed and head and neck could just be pulled away.

Is this level of damage usual?

I was pleased in that I was shooting in very dense gorse, so a runner would have been awful to follow up. But I was taken aback by the damage, and could imagine a side on shot that hit a shoulder would be a real mess.

Anyway - just curious as to other people's experience. I think I will go back to conventional soft points for the roe. Or indeed my .243.

 

[willie_gunn]

No, not normal. I've used 150gr ballistic tips for over 15 years on everything from muntjac to Highland reds and have not experienced damage like that.

Mine have been homeloads using Nosler BT's over 43.5 grains of N140.

But I've not done a front-on chest shot - all mine have been boiler room or neck shots.

willie_gunn

P.S. On re-reading your OP is there a chance you went in level with the spine?

 

[norma 308]

Norma 150 gr bst great bullet expensive though ,Normal chest shot usually no more damage than the 120 gr 6.5 bst ,lethal on head shot park deer and I've shot munty upto red stag and everything in between bullet placement is key as per usual .
norma

 

[woodmaster]

Mungo. Firstly I think you may well get some considerable flack for taking such a shot. Certainly not one I would have taken. I would have either gone for head/neck if on a good steady position or waited for it to turn. If none of those happened I'd have let it walk. However I wasn't there so can't possible know all the in's and out's. What I can say is I've shot a number of roe and sika with the .308 and not found any terrible damage as you describe. I have however seen roe shot with .243 soft point and the chest cavity turned to soup. So I wouldn't make any decision based on one deer. What speed are you pushing the Norma BT's at. If they are loaded too hot they do mushroom significantly more than at lower speeds around 2600/2700 ft/sec. I'm sure others on here shooting plenty animals with BT's will have more detail.

 

[Mungo]

P.S. On re-reading your OP is there a chance you went in level with the spine?

Yes - this may have contributed to the damage. It connected just where the spine starts to bend up into the neck (if that makes sense).

 

[Mungo]

Mungo. Firstly I think you may well get some considerable flack for taking such a shot. Certainly not one I would have taken. I would have either gone for head/neck if on a good steady position or waited for it to turn.

Uh oh. I didn't realise this was a controversial shot.

It certainly worked, and there was no green - all the damage contained inside the diaphragm.

 

[Uncle Norm]

Uh oh. I didn't realise this was a controversial shot.

It certainly worked, and there was no green - all the damage contained inside the diaphragm.

We all make mistakes and learn from them. We have all made them if we are honest.
I would have thought that the damage you describe is fairly typical of a front on chest shot. It is fortunate that it didn't penetrate the green gralloch and ruin the saddle or a haunch too. Such a shot could render the carcass unfit and a total write off. Its unfortunate that this happened with your first Roe. Put it down to experience gained and move on.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

nossy BT's in 150gr are the finest bullet I have ever used in my 308, their punch, penetration and reliability have never let me down with a good shot delivering one

 

[urx]

I had a pet load with 125gn nosler bt that worked very nicely. I was presented witha fallow where only the head was visible but as the range was almost precisely my zero range, it was a bipod/prone shot and there was no wind to speak of, it was straightforward. (side on viable / visible or any wind and I'd have passed on the headshot) the nosler detatched the head from the spine without exiting and produced a 'dead right there'.
I've used the 150 Norma factory bt rounds and reloads with 180 noslers as well, both to good effect and no 'internal carnage' results. I only used them as they (125/150) performed best in my rifle not so much the 180.
Expensive certainly but grouped nicely for confidence when you have a shot presenting itself.

you have to remember that results will vary depending on what your bullet hits on the way in/out at least as much as which bullet you choose.

 

[woodmaster]

I'm not criticizing your decision. You were there and know what you're happy with. I guess the damage was so extensive as all the energy was dropped in the chest cavity on hitting so much bone. Luckily it was contained within the chest so all good there. Shame there was so much damage, and would have been desirable to have been able to take a shot less likely to cause damage or even render the carcass contaminated. As Uncle Norm says we've all taken shots that we can learn from. I'm sure if you shoot a few more with the BT's you'll see what a good bullet they are.

 

[Southern]

Different Ballistic Tip bullets have different construction, because they have different anticipated and intended applications.
They are very accurate bullets. They are made for shooting at longer ranges.

The 120-gr 7mm BT is tougher than the 140-gr, because they know it will be launched at 3,000 from a 7x57 and much faster from a magnum.

The 150-gr .308 BT has a thinner jacket than the 180-gr BT, because the anticipated use is on thin skinned game, out of a .308 or .30-06 beyond 200 yards, or a .300 Magnum beyond 300 yards. Nosler says the optimum impact velocity is between 1900 and 2500 fps. It is best for broadside chest shots.

The manufacturer cannot make a wonder bullet that works in all applications.

The same velocity range applies to the 180-gr, but it is expected to be shot from a .30-06 and larger, and at tougher game, like moose or elk, where inches of muscle and heavy bones would be too much for the 150-gr.

Inside 200 yards, plain cup and core bullets work very well. Inside 100 yards, you don't need more than .30-30 velocity for eve,n big deer.

 

[willie_gunn]

Yes - this may have contributed to the damage. It connected just where the spine starts to bend up into the neck (if that makes sense).

Mungo

Interesting.

I was just wondering whether a bullet impacting the front of the spine would have resulted in the energy then transferring along the spine and to the connecting tissue/bones. This, along with the splinters of bone, would perhaps explain the traumatic damage you saw. All that energy has to go somewhere, after all.

I am not a veterinarian, physician or ballistician (if that's not a real word then it certainly should be) so it is just my theory, but I am sure others with more expertise will correct me if I'm wrong.

You will by now have realised that a frontal chest shot is not advisable - though shooting them through the other end is even less so.

Though Best Practice (http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/161.pdf) advises against neck shots, when faced with the same shot (deer face on towards you) I would personally take a frontal neck shot, aiming at the neck just below the chin. I was going to say "Adam's apple" though that would only apply to 50% of deer. I have also neck shot deer from behind - red stags in Scotland seem to more frequently present this shot for some reason. Just remember that every shot is a percentage shot. Oh, and all the normal caveats apply - safe backstop, steady rest, etc.

Others may harangue you for taking the shot but, as Uncle Norm has said, put it down to experience and learn from it. We have all made mistakes - if not, it's just a question of time.

willie_gunn

 

[SA shooter]

I reload the same 125's and 150's for my .308 and they shoot both .5 inch groups. I have shot Muntjac, Roe and Fallow with them with liffle damage, it all comes down to shot placement. But then again my .243 with 100gr soft nose heads do more damage than the .308 with BT's

 

[User00035]

Why use BTs?
I normally use home loaded Hornady 150 grn Interbond. Text book terminal performance with minimal meat damage. Ran out the other day so I bought some factory load Hornady SSTs. Haven't tried them on deer yet but by God they're accurate. If they don't knock them onside out I might stick to them.

 

[Mungo]

We all make mistakes and learn from them. We have all made them if we are honest.
I would have thought that the damage you describe is fairly typical of a front on chest shot. It is fortunate that it didn't penetrate the green gralloch and ruin the saddle or a haunch too. Such a shot could render the carcass unfit and a total write off. Its unfortunate that this happened with your first Roe. Put it down to experience gained and move on.

Not first ever roe - I've shot plenty. First with a .308.

I've also shot several front on before, aiming at precisely this point. It works very well - you take out the major vessels leading to the head, and hit the spine.

I know it's not recommended here, but it is recommended elsewhere. I'm happy with it and would certainly take it again.

 

[bewsher500]

depends entirely on what it hit on the way in I guess

If taking a front on shot I prefer to be shooting down through the chest to try and enter where you would knot a tie (yours not the deer's!) and a mid to lower sternum exit

or straight through the high neck

 

[Uncle Norm]

Not first ever roe - I've shot plenty. First with a .308.

I've also shot several front on before, aiming at precisely this point. It works very well - you take out the major vessels leading to the head, and hit the spine.

I know it's not recommended here, but it is recommended elsewhere. I'm happy with it and would certainly take it again.

Sorry I misunderstood your post. Its interesting to hear the different views and experiences. All the front-on chest shots that I have seen, irrespective of cartridge used, have been a mess.
Having done it myself once and seen the results of several others, it is not a shot that I would take. Simply for fear of ruining the carcass. I remember seeing one Roe carcass, where the bullet had tracked along the spine, ruined the saddle and most of both haunches. So not for me.
-

 

[willie_gunn]

I know it's not recommended here, but it is recommended elsewhere.

Okay, now you've honestly got me intrigued. Where else is it recommended?

willie_gunn

 

[Selous]

I suspect the issue that lead to the excessive damage is that the bullet hit the vertebral column end on. This would inevitably cause massive and immediate energy transfer as if a house brick had been hit. The shattering of the vertebrae and the fragmentation of the bullet would result in multiple secondary projectiles, all of which will lead to tissue damage. If you had been an inch lower you would probably have been spared the massive damage but would probably have burst the rumen. I suspect you would have the same effect if a 150g SP had been used instead of a BT in that the meat damage occurred because of bullet placement not bullet construction. But the main thing is that you have a dead deer

 

[jamross65]

Different Ballistic Tip bullets have different construction, because they have different anticipated and intended applications.
They are very accurate bullets. They are made for shooting at longer ranges.

The 120-gr 7mm BT is tougher than the 140-gr, because they know it will be launched at 3,000 from a 7x57 and much faster from a magnum.

The 150-gr .308 BT has a thinner jacket than the 180-gr BT, because the anticipated use is on thin skinned game, out of a .308 or .30-06 beyond 200 yards, or a .300 Magnum beyond 300 yards. Nosler says the optimum impact velocity is between 1900 and 2500 fps. It is best for broadside chest shots.

The manufacturer cannot make a wonder bullet that works in all applications.

The same velocity range applies to the 180-gr, but it is expected to be shot from a .30-06 and larger, and at tougher game, like moose or elk, where inches of muscle and heavy bones would be too much for the 150-gr.

Inside 200 yards, plain cup and core bullets work very well. Inside 100 yards, you don't need more than .30-30 velocity for eve,n big deer.

Thats the best device on here about why some polymer tipped bullets can at close range cause this OTT damage. The old Nosler reloading manual I had explained in detail what has been said above here.

I use nothing except Sierra Gameking SP in the 308 and they work well from 50-250yds...