Shooting deer at night

[Ranger22]

Don't land owners get grants and suchlike too, think they do. Was a lot of the country not covered in trees a few hundred years ago and cleared for farming?

 

[Yoda]

You have to remember that what is ethical to one man , may not be to the next.

And there you have hit it right on the head.

Can you normally shoot deer at night? No
Can you normally shoot deer all year round ? No
Would you normally want to wipe out a species of animal? No
Thank God "man" of evil ethics are in the minority as a lot of posts point to. Thank God

 

[bambislayer]

Because commercial forestry get a grant! and it is them that are changing the land use.

As do any other private land owner, remember much of our commercial forestry sits within " sporting" estates as well. It ain't an us and them situation, although many would like us to think that!

 

[6pointer]

BS The grant covers fencing so any one planting trees private or public gets cash to protect the trees. All grants come through FCS and I am sure they have a big input in to what is needed and what isn't.
But the Fact remains are night shooting Authorisations getting handed out with out the proper checks yes they are. Is that a criminal offence my opinion it is and the persons responsible should take the hit.

 

[countrryboy]

PaF,
My advice to forest owners is to start culling hard at least one year in advance of restocking, preferably two years. I would include as big an area as possible in the excercise. All being well, the restocking will be relatively straight forward. Trouble is that forests and restock sites are a magnet for deer and will draw them in from neighbouring ground. When this happens at night we have a problem. I'm a fan of lamping and out of season shooting as it allows me to protect crops when the deer make an appearance.

6pointer
If we foresters sign up to best practice there is a need to demonstrate that deer numbers are in balance with the surrounding habitat ; this invariably means a significant reduction in deer densities. Best practice encompasses night shooting and out of season shooting.....and its legal!


CB

I wish we could put up fences where needed but there are so many constraints that its not possible. Profitabillity is paramount as you only get the chance to cash in once every 45years. A poor restock site is a waste of money so we need full stocking and negligible damage. Deer have become a serious problem and too many restock sites have been ruined in the past by them in the past so the pressure is on to keep numbers down. Income from timber sales has been very good of late but up here in the highlands there combination of difficult sites, remote locations and inferior crops limits the potential income. Some harvesting sites don't generate enough income to pay for the restocking, let alone a fence.
To sum up, I believe that night shooting is a neccessary evil and if I could change the legislation I would make it possible to get a three year licence.

Scots pine do u find ur having more of a problem now with restocks sites than u did with the original 1st gen trees?
If so is there a reason?
More deer, or trees taking longer to establish on a restock site.

I take it from ur post u have some sites whicjh have had sever deer damage. Is there anything u can do to rectify it? Would imagine beating up might help but only in the first couple of years as new trees would be to big an age difference.
Do u ever get to the stage u have to replant? It is a long time to have a crop in knowing u will only get a sh*te return at the end.
Must admit i would be absolutely gutted if i was lucky enough to own timber and knew a crop had been decimated early on yet had to wait another 40 years with a crap crop on the ground knowing it will not make a profit, esp if need that profit to pay workers on the estate etc

I once replanted some shelter belts of larch for the 2nd and 3rd times due to rabbit damage, i think they got away the 3rd time or possibly the grant was paid so owner not bothered so much.


I honestly have no idea wot the answer is, the contractors are getting a slating but if a forester came along and seen all these deer on there 'contract' there phone would be ringing red hot and if they were'nt shot they would be getting the boot pretty quickly.
Also if there a full time contractor most aren't shooting the ammounts many on here think they are but they also only have 4-6 months to make there annual wage. How many on here could afford to wait 6 months or more for a pay check?

 

[Taff]

And there you have hit it right on the head.

Can you normally shoot deer at night? No
Can you normally shoot deer all year round ? No
Would you normally want to wipe out a species of animal? No
Thank God "man" of evil ethics are in the minority as a lot of posts point to. Thank God

I have to agree with most of what you say, but my only complaint is that a lot of the stalkers on here seem to think that only deer deserve such protection.
I am emigrating to NZ in March and all the above apply to all mammals there, although most hunters use common sense

 

[scotspine]

BS The grant covers fencing so any one planting trees private or public gets cash to protect the trees. All grants come through FCS and I am sure they have a big input in to what is needed and what isn't.
But the Fact remains are night shooting Authorisations getting handed out with out the proper checks yes they are. Is that a criminal offence my opinion it is and the persons responsible should take the hit.

New planting attracts good grants and the vast majority will be protected with a deer fence. Unfortunately restocking grants are negligible although many sites will be fenced as this is the most effective way to protect young crops. Those that are not fenced must be established to the same standards as those which are fenced. Any grants received may have to be repaid if a crop is not established.

A big number of Reds are now being culled to protect sensitive sites and woodland habitats; this is happening because there are too many Reds in some areas. As a result many Estates are now having to come up with long term game plans to ensure that sporting herds are maintained.

As an aside, separate grants are available for deer control too.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Here's a novel idea, why don't estates and private land owners put the deer fences up to stop their deer coming onto commercial forestry ground. Then we wouldn't have to deal with their deer at all.

that's not ideal though is it, prevent deer from moving either seasonally or through natural migration. I suspect the FC exports that go to Europe and the revenue that brings in would take a fair hit!!

 

[countrryboy]

I have to agree with most of what you say, but my only complaint is that a lot of the stalkers on here seem to think that only deer deserve such protection.
I am emigrating to NZ in March and all the above apply to all mammals there, although most hunters use common sense

Taff have u been to NZ yet? (Ur a lucky bugger, wish i immagited years ago)

Yes the hunters may be more ethical/pot hunters, but there is also all sorts of stuff going on over there too. If ur trophy hunting durng the 'roar' they advise u to carry the haed upside down so ur less likely to get shot by other hunters. Or put a hi viz vest over any deer ur carrying out 'piggy back' fashion fo the same reason., my mates all hunt in cammo orange and say deer dinae notice them

Over there there version of SNH, called DOC control deer and any other non native mammals (basically all mammals) by dropping poison baits out of aireoplanes and helicopters.
DoC make SNH look like a pussy, and SNH's version of deer control look's quite ethical compared to DoC's

Not sure if lamping legal over there but plenty of folk do it

 

[6pointer]

scotspine we don't have red here and most the new planting is part of the CSGN community woodlands grants age good and still we have FES shooting everything they can in the lamp.
Any grants received may have to be repaid if a crop is not established. To what standard and how many have been pulled not that many I would guess.
The other option would be to turn the most Iconic species in Scotland in to vermin to be treated no better than a Rats. In a lot of cases that's what is happening anyway just behind closed doors. Lets get them open and see what Joe Pub thinks.

Scotspine night shooting is not legal unless you follow BP. You cant change the rules to suit your needs. Public body's get took to court and loose all the time. Lets see what the next 3 months bring. Its a while since I was at court time for a wee visit. I am sure the minister for the environment will see it your way when he is held responsible for SNH,s Flagrant disrespect for law and order lmao.

 

[Taff]

Country boy I have been three times and my daughter lives there as well, I know all about DOC and heard all the horror stories about bush hunting, my main hunting will be possum with a lamp and trap, pig, goat and Turkey hopefully with a bow, deer may be a minor attraction, killed enough of them, for the time being.

 

[Mick9abf]

I have to agree with most of what you say, but my only complaint is that a lot of the stalkers on here seem to think that only deer deserve such protection.
I am emigrating to NZ in March and all the above apply to all mammals there, although most hunters use common sense

Things have probably changed dramatically but if you haven't read 'the chopper boys' (if you can get a copy), 'the helicopter hunters' or 'deer the New Zealand story' you would probably be shocked at what did go on over there when it was found the 'invasive species' were causing damage and money was they're to be made.

Contractors were making so much money that they were buying helicopters or in cases several, as shooting platforms and going at it hammer and tong with SLR's and similar after finding it was taking too much time/financial loss taking the carcasses in boats.

They also did live capture for deer farms and were from what I can recall from reading the books, all completely mental!!

 

[highland stalker]

Most people on here are shooting / stalking enthusiasts, so how many can honestly say that if the opportunity arose for them to go out and shoot deer in some very beautiful parts of the country and get paid a very handsome wage for doing so would actually turn it down............................Not a lot I suspect.
I have been out lamping with a friend many times in all conditions imaginable covering massive plantations. I can assure you its not for the faint hearted. No wandering through woods with a set of sticks there.
I worked on an estate which was given it's cull numbers by the deer commission and the cull numbers were huge and they were argued with also by the estates. Deer counts were held on all the neighboring estates and the keepers knew fine well that the same deer were being counted twice if not three times. What could the estates do about it........ not a lot.

So back to the post.................Maybe SNH are slack at handing out lamping licences but who can challenge them and who will do it. Probably no one. As for the contractors who are doing the work, as already said these are only working men the same as the rest of us who have bills to pay and if they don't do their job they will be replaced in a heartbeat by the many who would jump at it. Including myself to be honest.

I hope some of that makes sense,

Cheers,

 

[scotspine]

CB

In some areas a fair proportion of first generation plantings did not need deer fences as deer numbers were much lower. However after such a significant increase in woodland cover in recent decades deer numbers in the woods plus a big rise in hill Red densities has caused problems. It is now very difficult to establish trees without fencing or a persistent, localised cull.

Deer culling in woods is a tough job as even a few deer can cause significant damage so the stalker must be on call throughout the year....night shooting is more efficient (in general) but its demanding however it is a necessary tool of the trade.

You're right, there is no easy answer.

 

[scotspine]

6pointer,

I can't really comment on your patch as my experience has been gained following a long career in the Highlands. Having said that, I think night shooting in high population areas is a good option...I would go for it.

Standards are set out in the contract and in the past you really had to take the p*** to prompt a grant reclaim, however the new system is tough and folk have already been subject to fines, grant reductions and delayed payments.

Red deer densities are too high in many places and they are causing damage. The SNH have finally got the teeth to demand action, particularly on SAC's and SSSI's. Add to this the huge restructuring programs being underway in the forests, its no surprise that deer are in the spotlight (pun intended). My view is that Estates need to box clever in order to maintain sporting herds but the solution may require a short term loss. I don't think Joe Public is on the side of the Estates.

Finally, you seem to have a real problem re the legality of some night shooting licences; any chance you could be more specific?

 

[6pointer]

Is it really a necessary tool Scotspine or one that makes killing deer easy and while it is effective its legality is now in question in many areas. SNH caught with there pants down me thinks. Puppets of the FES steam train Nick Halfhides will not like it as I believe it falls at his door this time.
You might personally think night shooting in high public areas is a good thing but that is not how the law reads. I am also sure the public will not agree. I am sure when the Shi t hits the fan and it will if it continues to go the way it is going then we will here what the public think and what laws if any have been broken.

SNH have been trying to get the RTA problems solved in Glasgow and made a complete ass of it. Reason they did not listen to the public they interfered and tried to control Sounds familiar dose it not ,God will they never learn.

Have a nice evening and remember your long career in the highlands bares no resemblance to what happens in the central belts city,s.

 

[scotspine]

Is it really a necessary tool Scotspine or one that makes killing deer easy and while it is effective its legality is now in question in many areas. SNH caught with there pants down me thinks. Puppets of the FES steam train Nick Halfhides will not like it as I believe it falls at his door this time.
You might personally think night shooting in high public areas is a good thing but that is not how the law reads. I am also sure the public will not agree. I am sure when the Shi t hits the fan and it will if it continues to go the way it is going then we will here what the public think and what laws if any have been broken.

SNH have been trying to get the RTA problems solved in Glasgow and made a complete ass of it. Reason they did not listen to the public they interfered and tried to control Sounds familiar dose it not ,God will they never learn.

Have a nice evening and remember your long career in the highlands bares no resemblance to what happens in the central belts city,s.

Very true, I guess it works both ways

Have a good night.

 

[countrryboy]

I think the old grant schemes were 5% loss were acceptable at 5 years otherwise grant was withheld or owner had to plant at his expense.

6P i can understand why the upland boys are up in arms about it esp with Reds which can and will move big distances overnight and esp with the harsher climate it's only natural for them to find shelter. With timber crops being the only shelter, (much as i hate the idea of re-intros, but lynx may actually work to adapt deer behaviour and help keep deer out of the trees)
But i'm imagining the woods ur talking about are mainly Roe, surely if the roe are territoral it won't really matter wot the FC boys do to the extent it does with Red, yes they may lower the population over the boundry and u will get some migration to fill the void, but if other areas are left un shot/lamped do deer not move into them and stay there? Imagine plenty of good feeding inbetween the hardwoods and they'll feel safe in there too. Also if there hardwoods, will be prone to damage for a lot longer than ur SS

I'm quite familar with my area and it is lamped as heavily as any other forested area (mainly roe) but i doubt the culls are much higher than they were 30 years ago, my only gripe is there not employing Full time staff to do it, so costing young folk a proper job


I think highland stalker sums it up failry well its not the rangers or contractors fault there just trying to keep a roof over there heads, the problem lies at managent/pen pushing/bean counting levels if not government/SNH level.
But if Scots pine and i think others have said in the past there is more deer now than there was years ago, possibly they do need thinned out. Possibly u could argue this should have been done 30-40 years ago before sika got established and polluted all the red deer genetics.

While i think wholesale lamping is not right and companies trying to save money, is it really any different to syndicate or full time stalkers shooting every deer they see? And lets face it most stalkers will shoot almost every deer they see, esp on forestry/syndicate land (completley different if ur taking clients out etc)
I think an awful lot of stalkers would like to claim the moral high ground but in reality are shooting every safe deer they see so aren't that much different. And if they were offered the chance to get paid for culling many would think about it

 

[Hayduke]

It is simple not acceptable to take advantage of a situation where individuals or organisations slaughter deer for commercial gain

because this whole problem in money driven. but all of the deer go in the FC larder and get flogged for mega bucks...

Paul, that's nonsense. The Costs of rangers and contractors is greater than the revenue the carcasses bring in. Thus it ever was.

 

[6pointer]

CB I do not go against anything you say, My reply would be why not do it in the day light. Most of the contractors from here have jobs this is a little extra. I say fill your boots but follow the law and BP that underpins it. IF You do not have the money or the resources then look about you in the central belt area there is a waiting list at every private and company office for deer stalking. Why don't they lamp these small areas because there is absolutely no need. This competence of the Scottish government set about by SNH is a sham is it not.
My Last post Christ I said I would not get into this lol.See what a glass of wine can do.