Piccatinney/Weaver Rails

[Sam]

Hi all,

Im currently thinking about a new rifle. Looking very hard at the Remington 700 SPS Synth/Stain in 7mm-08, as Howa dont do a 7mm-08 (the swines!) this will replace the .243 I have atm. I think Im going to modify the gun along the way, as and when I can afford.

I've seen/heard a fair bit of these rails, but dont really know why they are better than the normal setup. If they offer a considerable advantage I shall get one. If some knowledgable chap could tell me more I would be ratgher grateful.

I'm going to put a S&B 8x56 on it, with a 1" tube (dont know if that makes a difference). The scope is sitting on said .243 at the moment, in Warne rings - Ideally I would take these onto the new setup, would this be possible on a rail?


So in short :-
Why is a rail worth it?
Which one do I get?
Where do I buy it?



Thanks Chaps

Sam

 

[KevinF]

Hi all,

Im currently thinking about a new rifle. Looking very hard at the Remington 700 SPS Synth/Stain in 7mm-08, as Howa dont do a 7mm-08 (the swines!) this will replace the .243 I have atm. I think Im going to modify the gun along the way, as and when I can afford.

I've seen/heard a fair bit of these rails, but dont really know why they are better than the normal setup. If they offer a considerable advantage I shall get one. If some knowledgable chap could tell me more I would be ratgher grateful.

I'm going to put a S&B 8x56 on it, with a 1" tube (dont know if that makes a difference). The scope is sitting on said .243 at the moment, in Warne rings - Ideally I would take these onto the new setup, would this be possible on a rail?


So in short :-
Why is a rail worth it?
Which one do I get?
Where do I buy it?



Thanks Chaps

Sam

Sam -
Unless your current Warne rings have a Picatinny base, no, you can't transfer them (to a Picatinny rail).

Why would you want a Picatinny rail?: You might be seduced by the ability to move your scope further forward - more eye relief - than with standard mounts. You might think the extra rigidity it imparts to the action is desirable.

Midway UK do a fair range, but home-bred suppliers like JLK and Optics Whorehouse do them at a good price too.

I am not knowledgeable. Check with a responsible adult too.

 

[Sam]

Thanks Kevin.

If thats the advantage of a rail I'm not that bothered!


atb

Sam

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Sam, fyi. http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2010/02/06/weaver-vs-picatinny-scope-rails/ regards JCS

 

[ejg]

Hi Sam,
what 243 rifle do you have at the moment. Sometimes it is cheaper to get a rifle rebarreled 243 to 7-08.
No mounts need to be changed and so on.
My friend had bought a 22-250 howa from me and decided to only deer shoot, last Friday he had the
barrel changed to a 308. Done in a day. He got a brand new 308 take off howa barrel and the smith
re chambered it to be sure. Tomorrow we'll zero and test.

On the other hand the Remmies seem to be better now than they were a few years ago. I can't complain
about the 243 sporter I bought last year. Maybe I was lucky.

Rails..
I put them on all my rifles.
Now at least I can switch scopes between rifles much easier.
I have had enough of horridly heavy optilocks. I can now pick up a
bucket full of mounts in all sizes for a song when I'm in the states.
Mounts stay on the scopes now.

edi

 

[baldie]

Sam,
People ask me this most days.
I will not fit twin mounts and bases, unless absolutely forced to , by the customers choice, or price constraints.
There are a lot of two piece bases for remmy,s out there. The absolute worst are the leupold ones. I can guarantee you, after they have been on the gun for a couple of months, that sees a little weather, they will be siezed on solid. If i had a quid for every one i,ve had to drill out, i,d be rich. They are rarely of such quality that they line up, thus stressing the scope, plus you have four points of error , to try and line up, rather than the two outer screws of a one piece rail.
A one piece rail, rarely siezes on for some reason, the major benefit is that it stiffens an action that already has two large holes in it. Ie the loading port and mag well.
It also means that picatinney/weaver rings are used, which is the most solid, and reliable mounting system in use. If you use quick release rings, you can also take the scope on and off, with the rifle usually returning to within an inch of zero.
I wouldn,t have two piece rails given.....at any price.

 

[Muir]

I have never drilled out a two piece base that was properly installed. In fact, just for fun I cruised some of the sites of the top accuracy gunsmiths in the US and there were plenty of two piece bases to be found on the rifles in their galleries. Additionally, a picatinney rail has little practical application on most hunting rifles (This is a stalking site, right?) as it interferes with loading, ejection, and otherwise easy access to the chamber.~Muir

 

[baldie]

There are two piece bases, and two piece bases my friend. The ones that most stalkers use are garbage, because they wont pay for a decent quality rail. The two piece bases used by the accuracy nuts in the states, are benchrest quality parts....a far cry from the rubbish we see here.
I recommend and fit, picatinney/weaver one piece bases, because they are a genuine aid to an accurate rifle, if stalkers dont need an accurate rifle then fine.
One piece rails of the correct type do not hinder loading, or ejection.
I,m not a stalker, i,m a gunsmith that just builds rifles. I,ve tried to pass on my experience to a guy that asked, based on day to day work on rifles.
If two piece rails were so good, people like surgeon would not build one piece rails into their actions.

 

[Muir]

Jesus Lord! Surgeon? Really??
It's a marvel how any deer ever got killed before the advent of hand-fitted picatinney rails, fitted to inaccurate rifles, which made them, then, accurate.

Look Baldie. I'm not saying you're wrong about the value of these rails but I think they're a little much on the average, off the rack stalking rifle and will do little to enhance their practical field accuracy. Now for the guys who would have you build a ground-up rifle for them, I'm sure the addition of this rail would be a boon to accuracy. This base thing is all my opinion of course, and the board members are free to weigh the value of this mounting system for themselves. Most people -especially the newcomers- are so frantic about the possibility of losing any particle of presumed accuracy that they will probably side with you. You're a gunsmith who fits these rails. I'm just a hick.~Muir

 

[finnbear270]

Sam, would you like to try a few through my Howa 7mm WSM?

 

[Sam]

Sam, would you like to try a few through my Howa 7mm WSM?

Hi Finn,

Im not getting a .7mm-08 anymore! Now getting a Tikka 6.5x55, but if the offer still stands that would be grand.



Sam

 

[Mat]

I'm with Baldie/Edi on this one: it's quite common for stalkers to have high end scopes on factory rifles, 2 piece bases are a great way of putting ring marks on them! It may or may not make much difference to the accuracy, but who wants to damage their scope, if only cosmetically?

A one piece base is about the best way to guarantee that your rings line up, though I would go further and say that you should really bed the base in too, so that it stays straight once it's tightened down.

 

[Muir]

The bases are a personal choice. I like one piece bases but if you really want to avoid marring a scope you need to lap the rings. But that's another topic.~Muir

 

[Black Islander]

Another obvious advantage of the Piccatinney rail is that you can purchase them with an in-built 20 - 30 MOA (Badger Optics), giving more elevation adjustment out of your scope.

 

[finnbear270]

I utilise a 20 m.o.a. weaver rail on my Howa, as I believe it will stop the action stretching!

 

[Brithunter]

Oh dear, well I am no gunsmith and I don't build rifles........................ yet but I am suspect of some of the points put forward by these Rifle builders and gunsmiths. These very ones seem to be the same ones who advocate using Remington 700 as the basis of the "custom" rifle. This alone is enough to make me steer clear as I rate the Remington 700 just above a Sten gun. Both being made from a bit of tubing with a touch of braze.

Now for UK stalking I can also see no point in having a Pitcanny rail especially one with 20 MOA of elevation built in........................................... for shooting a maximum of 200 yards . Oh come get real most deer are shot at well under 200 yards it's Stalking not sniping .

Now I have two rifles at the moment with Weaver two piece mounts which once finances permit will have those horrible mounts changed. Oh they work but look god-damned awful and cheap and they are cheap. As for returning to zero .......................... Big deal the Old Parker-Hale roll off mounts return to zero and usually much closer than the 1" quoted by baldy. Sorry about that

I am not that keen of the P-H roll offs and usually replace them on my P-H rifles. On the BSA's with the dovetailed action it's a bit more difficult so I try to keep a spare set or two to fit the next BSA that follows me home.

As for a one piece rail strengthenign or stiffening an action well your asking a lot of three or four tiny screws. To really be beneficial I would think that the base rail would have to machined to precisely fit into the opening and not just attached to the top with a drop of locite and three tiny screws! Either that brazed of welded in place.

The pitcanny rail has it's place where it was designed for Weapons systems to allow the fitting ao various handles and sighting devices. I have a friend in the US who has a Pitcanny rail with the 20 Mins of elevation machined into it on his rifle. He uses a scope and also Olympic target sights and shoots the rifle in 600 Bench Rest and Hi-Power competition to a high level. Not a stalking/walking rifle by any means as it weighs about 14lbs and looks about as comfortable as a plank of wood with it's huge square fore stock. In fact it reminds of an artillery piece and seems to me that it should be bolted to a concrete stanchion overlooking a pass or harbour .

Now the only real way to line up the scope mounts perfectly is to machine them in situ then lap to remove any imperfections.

You can swop scopes just as easy with the Std Weaver bases, the Leupold Q/R set up plus loads of others like the Apel mounts.. but pitcanny well i'll leave them to the tacticool crowd

 

[finnbear270]

Kev, I couldn't find an emoticon thingy representing tongue in cheek, I was referring to an earlier post by a friend.

 

[Black Islander]

Who is advocating taking long shots at deer?

Some people like to use their stalking rifle for a bit of target work, thus a rail with 20 moa is excellent for this application.

 

[Mat]

The bases are a personal choice. I like one piece bases but if you really want to avoid marring a scope you need to lap the rings. But that's another topic.~Muir

Surely that's just to fix misalignment that you'd avoid by using aligned bases and good quality rings?

 

[Mat]

As for a one piece rail strengthenign or stiffening an action well your asking a lot of three or four tiny screws. To really be beneficial I would think that the base rail would have to machined to precisely fit into the opening and not just attached to the top with a drop of locite and three tiny screws! Either that brazed of welded in place.

I would have thought it would make a reasonable difference: the cross section of the rail is usually significant compared with the rest of a sporter action and though the screws are small, they're easily enough to transmit plenty of force and not that small in relation to the base, it's not like they don't use screws to hold structural beams together? Ideally, we'd need some hard evidence to say for sure either way, wouldn't need much, a few clamps, weights and a dial gauge?

but pitcanny well i'll leave them to the tacticool crowd

Tacticool or not, it's a useful standard that allows compatibility between manufacturers, standardisation is a good thing. Aside from that, I've moved scopes from one rifle to another several times without having to touch the rings at all...