Land Reform and it's Impact On Stalking and the countryside

[NickJ]

Scottish sporting estates have already been severely devalued by Tax and Land reform threats since the Referendum. The SNP getting all but 3 seats could be the death knell. It is frightening the ignorance of rural affairs within the SNP.

My plan was to retire back to my native Scotland but unless there is a radical swing in Politics France is looking a lot more attractive currently..

 

[rodp]

Scottish sporting estates have already been severely devalued by Tax and Land reform threats since the Referendum. The SNP getting all but 3 seats could be the death knell. It is frightening the ignorance of rural affairs within the SNP.

My plan was to retire back to my native Scotland but unless there is a radical swing in Politics France is looking a lot more attractive currently..

If in fact it is ignorance. More voters live in cities than out in the sticks, far more. The real question should be WHY are they doing this to Scotland? Say what you will about politicians but the majority are not thick, they know exactly what's going on and why, so the question remains of why do what they're doing ?

 

[private fraser]

Because they want to reshape the country Their way.
It's what politicians do.
More to come.

 

[rodp]

Because they want to reshape the country Their way.
It's what politicians do.
More to come.

Maybe so, but to what end ......... why .? There has to be something in it for the politicians, they never do anything unless they're making out of it. What's to be made from all this ?

 

[Mick9abf]

The land reform bill is political pure and simple and always has been.

I feel this hasn't been helped by the combination of a heavy mix of nationalism brought around by the referendum accompanied by the constant badgering in the media since with the SNP in your face offering something for nothing and a clear anti Westminter rhetoric accompanied by the strong socialist (although I can think of more apt descriptions) promises and values held by them.

The old adage of if you say something loudly enough people will listen.

I cannot recall watching a Scottish news since the referendum that hasn't had them banging on about the ills that have been brought on the nation by the 'Westminster Government', it's easy to play to emotions.

History should tell us that nationalism and socialism can become a heady mix in the right circumstances and I am beginning to be ashamed by the way a political party are causing others to tar all Scots with the same brush. The SNP certainly don't speak for me or a heap of other people I know - but when was the last time you heard anyone else's view in the media? Even after the referendum result it wasn't accepted that not everyone held the same view as them.

Their aim is to demonise the wealthy/high earners or whatever you want to call them even though these are the very people who you require to stay and invest in the country to pay the taxes for the promises made in your manifesto.

Scotland is fast becoming one of the few places where working, being successful or owning land (whether inherited or not), is like having a noose around your neck.

What will land reform do - who knows but I don't think it will be good, certainly not for people who actually live in the country, and the more the SNP ruin Scotland the more I want to leave it.

 

[robbie rowantree]

Land reform is the Scottish equivalent of fox hunting. Tony Blair used hunting to great effect during his years in power as a distraction, I believe that this is the same tactic being used in Scotland . It is one of those highly emotional and totemic issues, largely fuelled, as was fox hunting, by prejudice and ignorance. It always rouses the crowd though.

Great play is made of the "fact" that 500 people own 50% of the land, the reality that this is either steep, wet, remote, above 400m, or all of these is rarely mentioned.

A saying in Scotland "that an acre of the isles of Forth is worth an earldom in the north" still rings true. The area where demand for land is greatest is around the steadily growing towns in areas where there is some chance of employment. Inverness in the Highlands, Aberdeen, or the area around Edinburgh. In most of these areas the developers and their bankers already have options on land that is due to be developed. The impact that giving this land to people for free would have could be interesting, as it would reduce the value of the houses of the many who are already on the property ladder. With low interest rates and low inflation, they could be in negative equity for long time. This doesn't make politicians popular with the people who actually vote.

I think the banks would soon have a quiet word (a bit like Jim Radcliffe did with INEOS at Grangemouth) and after a few sporting estates, ideally with unpopular landowners and a designated site in poor condition, are bought out by the community, to great fanfare, the idea will be quietly let drop. Expect that to happen after the next referendum on independence, which shouldn't be too long now.

 

[private fraser]

Well said gentlemen, these are the things the media aren't saying.

 

[bewsher500]

Scottish sporting estates have already been severely devalued by Tax and Land reform threats since the Referendum. The SNP getting all but 3 seats could be the death knell. It is frightening the ignorance of rural affairs within the SNP.

My plan was to retire back to my native Scotland but unless there is a radical swing in Politics France is looking a lot more attractive currently..

Not the way they are wringing their hands with a view to rateable value and changes to the tax system.
one fell swoop that will put estates out of business, on the market at lower values ready for a "community by out" heavily subsidised by the tax payer......

 

[levigsp]

I did not say the SFP is payable ONLY to tenants. I said that a landowner would have entitlement if he was also the farmer (during the reference years to be exact) and if a farm is let it is the tenant who owns the right to subsidy NOT the landowner. There is no doubt that some, and I think it will be very few, farmers get a subsidy that they don't need to make a decent profit but the majority couldn't trade in this modern world where we have come to expect cheap food without one. Also I would think most agri tenancy agreements predate the creation of SFP so can't be worked into agreements.

David

So David, if the subsidy does not belong to the farm but the farmer, whether owner occupier or tenent, then please tell me how one can lease farm land out to a tenent and keep the sfp.?

 

[JabaliHunter]

So David, if the subsidy does not belong to the farm but the farmer, whether owner occupier or tenent, then please tell me how one can lease farm land out to a tenent and keep the sfp.?

Terms of lease? You can sell land and retain SFP too (damn irritating for buyers, but you can...).

 

[NickJ]

Spot on RR

Land reform is the Scottish equivalent of fox hunting. Tony Blair used hunting to great effect during his years in power as a distraction, I believe that this is the same tactic being used in Scotland . It is one of those highly emotional and totemic issues, largely fuelled, as was fox hunting, by prejudice and ignorance. It always rouses the crowd though.

Great play is made of the "fact" that 500 people own 50% of the land, the reality that this is either steep, wet, remote, above 400m, or all of these is rarely mentioned.

A saying in Scotland "that an acre of the isles of Forth is worth an earldom in the north" still rings true. The area where demand for land is greatest is around the steadily growing towns in areas where there is some chance of employment. Inverness in the Highlands, Aberdeen, or the area around Edinburgh. In most of these areas the developers and their bankers already have options on land that is due to be developed. The impact that giving this land to people for free would have could be interesting, as it would reduce the value of the houses of the many who are already on the property ladder. With low interest rates and low inflation, they could be in negative equity for long time. This doesn't make politicians popular with the people who actually vote.

I think the banks would soon have a quiet word (a bit like Jim Radcliffe did with INEOS at Grangemouth) and after a few sporting estates, ideally with unpopular landowners and a designated site in poor condition, are bought out by the community, to great fanfare, the idea will be quietly let drop. Expect that to happen after the next referendum on independence, which shouldn't be too long now.

 

[rodp]

Land reform is the Scottish equivalent of fox hunting. Tony Blair used hunting to great effect during his years in power as a distraction, I believe that this is the same tactic being used in Scotland . It is one of those highly emotional and totemic issues, largely fuelled, as was fox hunting, by prejudice and ignorance. It always rouses the crowd though.

Great play is made of the "fact" that 500 people own 50% of the land, the reality that this is either steep, wet, remote, above 400m, or all of these is rarely mentioned.

A saying in Scotland "that an acre of the isles of Forth is worth an earldom in the north" still rings true. The area where demand for land is greatest is around the steadily growing towns in areas where there is some chance of employment. Inverness in the Highlands, Aberdeen, or the area around Edinburgh. In most of these areas the developers and their bankers already have options on land that is due to be developed. The impact that giving this land to people for free would have could be interesting, as it would reduce the value of the houses of the many who are already on the property ladder. With low interest rates and low inflation, they could be in negative equity for long time. This doesn't make politicians popular with the people who actually vote.

I think the banks would soon have a quiet word (a bit like Jim Radcliffe did with INEOS at Grangemouth) and after a few sporting estates, ideally with unpopular landowners and a designated site in poor condition, are bought out by the community, to great fanfare, the idea will be quietly let drop. Expect that to happen after the next referendum on independence, which shouldn't be too long now.

Do you think so ?

 

[6pointer]

Good post RR and I feel you will be spot on but not before SNP remove some of the Tax exemptions the large estates receive at this moment in time.If SNP want to run a country they need to start by owning some of it. It is time that Scotland was given a chance to flourish and is not held back by greedy private and public body's who are meant to be looking after Scotland's natural heritage.
As this is a deer stalking site the deer sector is its own worst enemy. I really hope SNP shake the foundations to there core because it is needed.

 

[Mick9abf]

Good post RR and I feel you will be spot on but not before SNP remove some of the Tax exemptions the large estates receive at this moment in time.If SNP want to run a country they need to start by owning some of it. It is time that Scotland was given a chance to flourish and is not held back by greedy private and public body's who are meant to be looking after Scotland's natural heritage.
As this is a deer stalking site the deer sector is its own worst enemy. I really hope SNP shake the foundations to there core because it is needed.

Why do the Scottish Government need to 'own' Scotland to run it, just about every country seems to get by without the government 'owning' everything and what exactly are they going to do to make money out of it as many estates don't?

If they end up owning a lot of the ground which highland estates make up the reality is there is little to do other than plant trees and wind farms, and since it's a deer stalking site all it will do is result in an eradication policy for all deer - especially by your least favourite method of control.

There in the highlighted text of RR's post you have 'bolded' the main problem that I have with SNP and their supporters; they won't let the independence referendum drop - so much for "once in a generation". A good friend is always banging on about it and fails to see anyone else's point of view, who happened to be the majority of Scots by the way.

6 Pointer can you suggest, with provenance, where all the money is coming from to fill their proposals and manifesto promises as no one from the SNP seems to be able too?

I'd be obliged if you could also tell me why people and businesses would want to invest serious money in a country run like they propose with unknown tax quantities (as they may or will get control of tax as a result of the Smith report), which is what they would actually need to fund it?

I don't earn much and would certainly not want to be taxed more to pay for their dreams and the free rides others take in the country.

 

[6pointer]

At this moment in time two of the biggest landowners/managers are public owned. It is in this area I would start the sell off it makes sense to look at trials that have succeeded and ones that have failed. So we look at Arran Scheme a success of public owned land giving a chance to others while helping a rural economy grow.(SNH FES and BASC,S WORDS NOT MINE). So if we roll out ideas like this and add to them over the next few years Scotland can profit from land that is costing it a fortune to manage at the moment. Nail Rowntree at Ardnamurchan has shown what can happen when you take on an estate and get the full support of the government departments. He has made a real success of that place I am told filling places with over seas client bring money in to the country this could be done again and again if there was a desire. Build a venison industry that uses its own resources first before exporting the valued product.
Now this is a stalking site but lets not kid our selves this could happen in many sectors.

 

[Mick9abf]

At this moment in time two of the biggest landowners/managers are public owned. It is in this area I would start the sell off it makes sense to look at trials that have succeeded and ones that have failed. So we look at Arran Scheme a success of public owned land giving a chance to others while helping a rural economy grow.(SNH FES and BASC,S WORDS NOT MINE). So if we roll out ideas like this and add to them over the next few years Scotland can profit from land that is costing it a fortune to manage at the moment. Nail Rowntree at Ardnamurchan has shown what can happen when you take on an estate and get the full support of the government departments. He has made a real success of that place I am told filling places with over seas client bring money in to the country this could be done again and again if there was a desire. Build a venison industry that uses its own resources first before exporting the valued product.
Now this is a stalking site but lets not kid our selves this could happen in many sectors.

6Pointer, your speaking of schemes that have worked but will really be small in terms of profit in the grand scale of things and will have needed investment. It's like saying whisky exports, as I'm not mentioning oil, will bring in enough to float the country.

Unless I'm wrong, what you are saying is make the privately owned land affordable to be publicly bought as cheaply as possible by taxing and legislating the current owners out and then sell it off at a profit on the basis that a heap of small businesses will buy it whether they be the venison industry or otherwise?

Also a lot of the land that is costing a fortune to manage isn't costing us the taxpayers, it's costing the owners (any subsidies aside).

 

[6pointer]

No mate I did not say that at all and yes you are very wrong. I am not saying Scotland dose not need investment yes it dose as dose any business. But what I was saying is start with the land we already own and brake it down in to workable bits. At this moment in time we are throwing money down a big hole. But I would tax Landowners I pay my taxes as do all my family why should they be exempt. Not only are the estates exempt but they cost the country in grants and hand outs received.
I am glad you feel FES BASC scheme was a good idea and if there study's are correct then its not just a drop in the ocean it is a starting point on which to work through the problems we have in the deer industry one of which is very high costs for the majority to stalk or manage deer.
Time for a change in our industry is my opinion.

 

[Mick9abf]

No mate I did not say that at all and yes you are very wrong. I am not saying Scotland dose not need investment yes it dose as dose any business. But what I was saying is start with the land we already own and brake it down in to workable bits. At this moment in time we are throwing money down a big hole. But I would tax Landowners I pay my taxes as do all my family why should they be exempt. Not only are the estates exempt but they cost the country in grants and hand outs received.
I am glad you feel FES BASC scheme was a good idea and if there study's are correct then its not just a drop in the ocean it is a starting point on which to work through the problems we have in the deer industry one of which is very high costs for the majority to stalk or manage deer.
Time for a change in our industry is my opinion.

I totally agree that there are problems in the Deer industry but do you genuinely believe 'land reform' is in any shape or form about affordable stalking or what can be made of it or deer at all in fact.

On another note as for affordable stalking I still think that the UK as a whole is quite cheap compared to other countries although the price is rising continually but that's for another thread .

 

[bewsher500]

Good post RR and I feel you will be spot on but not before SNP remove some of the Tax exemptions the large estates receive at this moment in time.If SNP want to run a country they need to start by owning some of it. It is time that Scotland was given a chance to flourish and is not held back by greedy private and public body's who are meant to be looking after Scotland's natural heritage.
As this is a deer stalking site the deer sector is its own worst enemy. I really hope SNP shake the foundations to there core because it is needed.

I am not a landowner but I can't imagine the cluster**** the Scottish government would make of the country if they actually owned the land as well as tried to run it
it would quickly become a huge Sitka plantation or covered in fecking windmills

i have seen the result of a community buy out.
the place looks like the kind of shiithole that gypos leave behind in less than 4 years of ownership
denuded of any forestry worth any money, not cleared properly, not replanted, total eye sore with no accountability or responsibility


look at some of the plantations Mugabe "reclaimed" now. General upkeep and management completely abandoned following the first harvest. Value stripped and dumped

 

[Kalahari]

When you look at the election results it appears that a huge proportion of Scots have bought into the SNP's anti English and Westminster rhetoric. We should perhaps accept that it is time for them to go their own way. People should remember the old saying that, "You know how to make a small fortune out of a Highland Estate? Start off with a very large fortune" Many estates are effectively subsidized by wealthy people who can afford to sink money into an estate because of the enjoyment it brings. Most people can't and splitting them up would be the end for many highland villages.

David.