Lead ban date announced

25 Sharps said:
An understanding of twist rate and bullets available in that calibre will tell you if it will work or not. And if you’re not sure you can always ask on here.

.243 is possibly the only iffy one if you’re in Scotland, so buy a 6.5 or bigger and you’ll have no issues.

With the costs of copper ammo reloading is a sensible option.
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Yeah that's the thing I would like a .243 however I'm unsure how much I'll like the performance with it, I'm a small women It was a very ideal calibre before the lead ban but given I'm shooting reds with it I might actually have to go bigger? I obviously dont shoot reds often, however them moving 30ft could be the difference of packing it out versus getting it out whole.

I dont shoot these larger calibres often I'm not a target shooter I shoot deer and for the most part I've learned too shoot on deer, so going from a little .222 I can shoot perfectly on roe too the point where I took a 80-90y headshot the other day, too a big booming calibre I shoot maybe 10 times in a year and I'm not nearly as accurate with Is dodgy.

I shoot well enough too kill a red with lead, but the fact I've got too narrow It down too a margin of probably 2.5" too pin through the shoulder too get the expansion isn't nice, I know all copper has similar issues but Its a bit annoying that I'll probably have too consider 270 or 308 logically.

Reloading however is something we will consider, I know fella used too do it and In his retirement perhaps Its something he would consider picking up again.
 
Dunwaters said:
Guys, you’re aiming at the wrong target. The argument over whether or not lead in ammunition is over.
Your government has decided to implement a ban.
That is now official policy and its not going to change.
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This government does so many U turns and is very keen to line up with the EU so it may not be as done and dusted for rifle ammunition as you suggest.
 
jedi said:
My Sako 75 .243 needs a new barrel,so would this be a waste of my money due to the ban ?
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No, my Sako 75 in 243 shoots fine with Hornady CX handloads and also Hornady Outfitter factory ammo (same bullet).

That’s with the factory 1:10 barrel.

If you like it, you could just have another 1:10 fitted or have a 1:9/1:8 for peace of mind.

I’ve killed muntjac, roe and fallow with it. With a standard chest shot the fallow ran a little further than I might have expected but they were still very dead. That said, I had a roe run a few hundred meters last year having been shot through the heart with a 165gr Gameking from my ‘06.

80gr is legal for reds in Scotland now too, so there’s no ‘need’ to swap a 243. Of course, you can if you want to. My experience with the Creed (which I’d imagine mirrors other mild 6.5s) is that, even with lead, it doesn’t knock things over with the authority of the 270, 308, ‘06 or magnums - so you may want to step up a fair degree if you want to guarantee more authority on quarry.
 
jedi said:
My Sako 75 .243 needs a new barrel,so would this be a waste of my money due to the ban ?
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Not if the twist of the new barrel was the right pitch to stabilise non-lead AND you intended to still be using the thing in ten years time? Otherwise use it for now and then have it rebarreled or buy a "new" replacemnet SAKO with that better pitch rate?
 
WW. said:
This government does so many U turns and is very keen to line up with the EU so it may not be as done and dusted for rifle ammunition as you suggest.
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It's quite surprising to see the reaction to the REACH legislation which is now enacted. This has been coming down the track for 15 years. A bomb hasn't just landed out of the blue, and in truth the writing was already on the wall. The original HSE proposals will have taken 7 years to come into effect. There were 500 pages of justification and evidence in the annexes to the consultation. On looking back perhaps there were just too many words. Just a few pages of that to summarise the why and wherefore, which is virtually word for word for what has actually come to pass.;)
 

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Sol said:
Yeah that's the thing I would like a .243 however I'm unsure how much I'll like the performance with it, I'm a small women It was a very ideal calibre before the lead ban but given I'm shooting reds with it I might actually have to go bigger? I obviously dont shoot reds often, however them moving 30ft could be the difference of packing it out versus getting it out whole.

I dont shoot these larger calibres often I'm not a target shooter I shoot deer and for the most part I've learned too shoot on deer, so going from a little .222 I can shoot perfectly on roe too the point where I took a 80-90y headshot the other day, too a big booming calibre I shoot maybe 10 times in a year and I'm not nearly as accurate with Is dodgy.

I shoot well enough too kill a red with lead, but the fact I've got too narrow It down too a margin of probably 2.5" too pin through the shoulder too get the expansion isn't nice, I know all copper has similar issues but Its a bit annoying that I'll probably have too consider 270 or 308 logically.

Reloading however is something we will consider, I know fella used too do it and In his retirement perhaps Its something he would consider picking up again.
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270 use the 130gn fox factory offering 👌 with minimal fuss and damage
 
Sol said:
Yeah that's the thing I would like a .243 however I'm unsure how much I'll like the performance with it, I'm a small women It was a very ideal calibre before the lead ban but given I'm shooting reds with it I might actually have to go bigger? I obviously dont shoot reds often, however them moving 30ft could be the difference of packing it out versus getting it out whole.

I dont shoot these larger calibres often I'm not a target shooter I shoot deer and for the most part I've learned too shoot on deer, so going from a little .222 I can shoot perfectly on roe too the point where I took a 80-90y headshot the other day, too a big booming calibre I shoot maybe 10 times in a year and I'm not nearly as accurate with Is dodgy.

I shoot well enough too kill a red with lead, but the fact I've got too narrow It down too a margin of probably 2.5" too pin through the shoulder too get the expansion isn't nice, I know all copper has similar issues but Its a bit annoying that I'll probably have too consider 270 or 308 logically.

Reloading however is something we will consider, I know fella used too do it and In his retirement perhaps Its something he would consider picking up again.
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You don’t need to go that big, a 6.5x55 or 6.5 creedmoor will get the job done. If you reload you can use a fragmenting copper bullet such as the Yew Tree offerings, placement can be the same as a normal cup and core bullet.

But even with a barnes, if you get enough velocity there’s no need to pin through the shoulder, they expand well, as long as they are going fast enough. I shoot 80 gr barnes out of the 25-45, mainly on roe, they’re leaving the muzzle at circa 3150 fps, I never aim for the shoulder and expansion always gets the job done out to 200 yards.
 
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enfieldspares said:
Note the abject failure of BASC in regard to .243 Winchester. The authoritave voice of shooting?

23. Paragraph 12(b) does not apply to other projectiles which are—

(a)a calibre of less than 6.17 millimetres and used in, or placed on the market for use in, live quarry shooting, including related zeroing;

(b)used in, or placed on the market for use in, indoor target shooting; or

(c)placed on the market for use at an outdoor shooting range.

Yet being spun by BASC as somehow a success. Please, Alice, pass the sick bag:

BASC’s deputy director of shooting operations, Terry Behan, said: “In 2020, BASC and other shooting organisations took the initiative by announcing a voluntary five-year transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry shooting, knowing that regulatory change was likely. Our priority was to uphold the shooting community’s long-standing commitment to high environmental standards while protecting the future of shooting in the UK.

“We’re pleased to see that the exemptions BASC successfully argued and lobbied for – including for small calibre rifles, airguns, shooting on ranges that meet mitigation requirements, and elite athletes – have been included in the Government’s plans, reflecting the practical realities of pest control, target shooting and competitive shooting.

“We are disappointed that the Government has not listened to the advice of the shooting sector on the inclusion of .243 within the definition of larger calibres.

Maybe it's time for BASC to just pack up and fade away. All puff and promise like ten year certificates. But never mind still good deals to be had on red wine in the quarterly magazine. Should come with a punched hole on the top left corner and ready perforated to make its use easier in the outhouse.
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😳😂
 
Liveonce said:
Based on poor science and hidden agendas, after all lead from elite athletes guns is allowed.
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It doesn’t matter, you are well past the debating the science phase, you are now into writing the statute and getting it through parliament. Theres no going back.
Liveonce said:
This country is run to suite the agenda and personal ambitions of the MPs not the people who they are supposed to represent. Section 2 to section 1 next, as they will decide what’s best not for us but for them under the agenda of public safety driven by one MP, one person out of the population of this country.
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WW. said:
This government does so many U turns and is very keen to line up with the EU so it may not be as done and dusted for rifle ammunition as you suggest.
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I hope you’re right. One of the land mines the EU has hit is that the bullet manufacturers have told them that they can produce non lead or lead bullets but not both. If this forces a rethink, we have Putin and Trump to thank
 
Dunwaters said:
I hope you’re right. One of the land mines the EU has hit is that the bullet manufacturers have told them that they can produce non lead or lead bullets but not both. If this forces a rethink, we have Putin and Trump to thank
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Hang on, are you saying norma and RWS for example, have to choose between non toxic and lead based production?
 
HonestJohn said:
Hang on, are you saying norma and RWS for example, have to choose between non toxic and lead based production?
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I’m saying that the bullet manufacturers have stated that they can tool up for both traditional lead core and copper , but not both because the process is different.
They can tool up for copper, but the downside is that they then can’t provide military grade projectiles at the current volume or price if they do, and the equipment is not reconcile able with dual production, it’s an either or call.
So produce copper for the sports industry or mass produce military?

Do you guys not keep an eye on the EU reports? I think this was covered in the latest FACE update.
 
Dunwaters said:
I hope you’re right. One of the land mines the EU has hit is that the bullet manufacturers have told them that they can produce non lead or lead bullets but not both. If this forces a rethink, we have Putin and Trump to thank
Click to expand...
What?? Most bullet manufactorers have both C&C and monometal production lines already. Norma has once again got military orders for ammunition and they still have production of hunting bullets c&c , monometal and tin and copper bullets. Lapua, S&B, RWS, PRVI they have monometal and lead based options.
 
Apthorpe said:
(On Heym's statement that most copper bullets are CNC machined)
Where did you originate this fact? Is there any data on it or are you just assuming?
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Heym was right. Most are CNC machined. It is obvious when you look at the bullets.

Copper is a real pain to machine: it wants to flow around the tool instead of cut. Takes very sharp tools, right cutting fluid, right speed, right everything if you want to avoid a mess. So difficult, that some companies specialise just in CNC machining because other companies don't want to touch copper on their CNC lathes.

Yes, copper can be cast, due I don't see anyone die casting it. Investment casting is not going to give cheap bullets, and even then the surface would have to be cleaned up. Open casting into a mould is going to lead to messy bullets on their rear.

Powder forming (mix with plastic, press - it can be super accurate, then heat which shrinks it 50% or so) is expensive for bullets.

Drop forged or axially pressed bullets, gives a nice flash line / witness line, is going to suck.

Press formed radially would works running wire into a press, which I guess is where it will go once volumes are right.

A totally different production line than for lead bullets either way. When people quote manufacturers as saying you can have lead or Cu but not both, all they are saying is the manufacturers can't afford another building. In the UK, they are probably right, but buildings are cheap in many other countries (and without business rates, business elec costs and the business water rip off).
 
Dave_45 said:
I suppose like anything else , it’s all fine until you get caught and lose your gun licence.
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Who's going to catch anyone? In theory your right but in practical reality i cant see how this is being enforced, would most sensible members of the public rather the police go after actual criminals or spend their time driving around the countryside looking for shooter and checking their ammunition?
 
AlexD said:
Heym was right. Most are CNC machined. It is obvious when you look at the bullets.

Copper is a real pain to machine: it wants to flow around the tool instead of cut. Takes very sharp tools, right cutting fluid, right speed, right everything if you want to avoid a mess. So difficult, that some companies specialise just in CNC machining because other companies don't want to touch copper on their CNC lathes.

Yes, copper can be cast, due I don't see anyone die casting it. Investment casting is not going to give cheap bullets, and even then the surface would have to be cleaned up. Open casting into a mould is going to lead to messy bullets on their rear.

Powder forming (mix with plastic, press - it can be super accurate, then heat which shrinks it 50% or so) is expensive for bullets.

Drop forged or axially pressed bullets, gives a nice flash line / witness line, is going to suck.

Press formed radially would works running wire into a press, which I guess is where it will go once volumes are right.

A totally different production line than for lead bullets either way. When people quote manufacturers as saying you can have lead or Cu but not both, all they are saying is the manufacturers can't afford another building. In the UK, they are probably right, but buildings are cheap in many other countries (and without business rates, business elec costs and the business water rip off).
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been saying similar, but one SD member likes to disagree.

One reason for brass bullets is because it is so much easier to machine. Free cutting copper is available it includes sulphur, tellurium and lead the free machining agent. Yes lead 😊
 
How's it going to work if you have access to a range that has lead recovery in line with the requirements.

Will it be like getting slugs in your FAC?
 
nf-fuse said:
How's it going to work if you have access to a range that has lead recovery in line with the requirements.

Will it be like getting slugs in your FAC?
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Im only guessing here but something along the lines of ...
Your club will have to be registered as a lead recovery range with all the appropriate H+S certificates .

You will be allowed to possess lead and use it by way of a variation as long as you're a full member of that club , use only at that club .
 
One on top of two said:
Im only guessing here but something along the lines of ...
Your club will have to be registered as a lead recovery range with all the appropriate H+S certificates .

You will be allowed to possess lead and use it by way of a variation as long as you're a full member of that club , use only at that club .
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Be lots of folk joining clubs again I reckon....
 
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