17 Remington brass issue

[Ttocs]

Quick question for the reloading experts. I’ve just prepped som 17 Rem brass (Remington) - neck sized in a Wilson die. However, I found there wasn’t enough neck tension to hold a bullet. I repeated the process with an RCBS FL die and again, no neck tension. Would I be correct in assuming the brass has work hardened over 4/5 firings and now needs annealing? I’ve not had any issues with my 204 brass (Hornady) with a similar number of firings.
Thanks
N

 

[Stalker62]

Four or five firings without annealing is pushing it...

 

[NP435]

Yes it is time to anneal, should that fail new brass. I have gone 10 shots in 22-250 with two annealings so it should help you. Hornady brass may be a bit softer than the others and thus less work hardned and thus less spring back.

 

[Ttocs]

Thanks for the replies. I’ve done a quick annealing test and it appears to have solved the problem (heating the neck with a blow torch whilst rotating the case in my fingers & quenching when the head of the case got too hot to hold. This produced a nice ‘heat’ line just below the shoulder).
Next question, is there any merit in annealing the brass every time it’s reloaded? For hunting brass, this is probably not normally necessary but the 17Rem brass has such a narrow neck diameter (very little brass to stretch/relax), I‘m starting to wonder if I’d get more consistent neck tension with regular annealing.
Cheers

 

[NP435]

Thanks for the replies. I’ve done a quick annealing test and it appears to have solved the problem (heating the neck with a blow torch whilst rotating the case in my fingers & quenching when the head of the case got too hot to hold. This produced a nice ‘heat’ line just below the shoulder).
Next question, is there any merit in annealing the brass every time it’s reloaded? For hunting brass, this is probably not normally necessary but the 17Rem brass has such a narrow neck diameter (very little brass to stretch/relax), I‘m starting to wonder if I’d get more consistent neck tension with regular annealing.
Cheers

All I can say is possibly so. The thought is sound so maybe experiment.

 

[fizzbangwhallop]

I now anneal my cases every time I do a batch now to get the consistency right, I’ve graduated to a molten salt system nowadays but I used to get good results using one of these to hold the case neck in the flame of a torch taped to the worktop and standing at such an angle that I could see the colour change over the shoulder in the light from the window behind.

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cheers

fizz

 

[Border]

I use @Alantoo's soap method. Works fine for me with drill, socket and burner.

 

[Ttocs]

Well, I thought I’d cracked it - apparently not. The problem persists!

heres a photo of my ‘annealed’ cases; perhaps I didn’t get them hot enough but the brass is still springing back with not enough neck tension to hold the bullet.
Could it have anything to do with me drying the brass on top of the Aga when it’s been cleaned? It can’t be that hot as I can pick it off to pop it into a container.
ps Photo of brass that was annealed the wet tumbles with S/S media, Fairy liquid and a teaspoon of citric acid crystals.
Im perplexed
N

 

[Border]

If it's a Wilson neck die could you not use a smaller bushing to gain more neck tension?

 

[Ttocs]

I also ran the brass through a RCBS full length die, same issue, so it must be something more fundamental.
N

 

[Border]

Time for some new brass?

 

[Ttocs]

Hi Border, I think you my be correct about the bush - I keep popping upstairs to my ‘reloading room’ then back down to think about it then back up for more measurements. I think I’m driving the other half round the bend.
Anyway, I’m using a 192 bush and the brass is springing back .001” giving me .193” OD and an ID of .1725”; hence the issue with the .172” bullets. I thought my check with the full length die was definitive. However, for thoroughness I checked the expander dimensions in the RCBS die. .1735”, allowing for .001” spring back suggests it’s too large (it’s a new decapping rod as I damaged the last one).
My new theory is the brass is getting thinner at the neck (possibly not just the neck) and is now too thin for the 192 bush. I’ll reduce the diameter of the decapping rod expander to give me .002” of neck tension and try a batch of full length sized brass rather than neck sizing. If that solves the problem I’ll either continue to full length size, with the RCBS die, or get a neck die with expander.
Please chip in and correct me if you think I’m following the wrong course.
Cheers
N

 

[NP435]

Hi Border, I think you my be correct about the bush - I keep popping upstairs to my ‘reloading room’ then back down to think about it then back up for more measurements. I think I’m driving the other half round the bend.
Anyway, I’m using a 192 bush and the brass is springing back .001” giving me .193” OD and an ID of .1725”; hence the issue with the .172” bullets. I thought my check with the full length die was definitive. However, for thoroughness I checked the expander dimensions in the RCBS die. .1735”, allowing for .001” spring back suggests it’s too large (it’s a new decapping rod as I damaged the last one).
My new theory is the brass is getting thinner at the neck (possibly not just the neck) and is now too thin for the 192 bush. I’ll reduce the diameter of the decapping rod expander to give me .002” of neck tension and try a batch of full length sized brass rather than neck sizing. If that solves the problem I’ll either continue to full length size, with the RCBS die, or get a neck die with expander.
Please chip in and correct me if you think I’m following the wrong course.
Cheers
N

You are doing fine, if that fails well new brass time. My sizing is just enough so that I can push the case in the chamber with a crush fit, assuming it is a bolt gun, my single shots my guide is can the breech block rise with no blockage this results in a near vacume seal in the chamber.

 

[jb1]

I also reload 17 rem and have not that issue, but use Hornady die's. I dont thing the bushing is tight enough, a bit obvious really, you are looking into that so could solve the problem.
I anneal every 2nd firing, i am trying to look after what brass we can get, you can only get Nosler Custom now.

 

[Border]

I started with Lee Collet die and Redding body die but keep things simple now and FL size everything these days. I hoarded 17 Rem brass (RP) when I saw it and should have a lifetimes supply
It may also be that you haven't stress relieved the brass enough. Far from an expert but @Alantoo's soap method is easy and repeatable....I shoot less than 50 17 Rem rounds a year as it is my dedicated winter foxing fur rifle.

 

[Ttocs]

I’m also using REM (RP) brass and I’ve got about 400 in my stash. I did use some Nosler brass but it’s expensive; funnily though, I get better accuracy with the REM brass and the best accuracy I got wit the Nosler was at 4480f/S using 20gr Varmageddon. Scary fast!
im going to give FL sizing a go but I’d rather just neck size the brass if I can so now thinking along the lines of a Lee collet die if I can get my hands on one. Love my 17Rem Sako 75 but it a PTA some times.
N

 

[NP435]

Brass changes in grain structure at 750 degree's Tempilaq shows that temp has been reached and then I quench in water. The brass
is marked at the datum line, Some residue may exist after this and easy to remove.

 

[jb1]

I’m also using REM (RP) brass and I’ve got about 400 in my stash. I did use some Nosler brass but it’s expensive; funnily though, I get better accuracy with the REM brass and the best accuracy I got wit the Nosler was at 4480f/S using 20gr Varmageddon. Scary fast!
im going to give FL sizing a go but I’d rather just neck size the brass if I can so now thinking along the lines of a Lee collet die if I can get my hands on one. Love my 17Rem Sako 75 but it a PTA some times.
N

4480 fps ,

Thats not fast !!!!

I got 4900 now thats fast BLC2 in Nosler Custom and 3/4 grain under max, worked up, i made a stupid mistake and used Nosler Custom and not RP brass.

I stopped using the BLC2 and sticking to Varget.

 

[Ttocs]

4900f/s

 

[PeterH]

Ttocs - Have you tried removing the expander rod from the F/L die and the measuring the OD at the neck? I have on occasions dispensed with the decapping rod to slightly increase bullet tension.

I have checked the expander on my Redding N/K and F/L dies and they are both .1715

As suggested previously, dropping a bushing down to .190 would be a more expensive option than my above suggestion.