2 Great Lions

[Bo Diddley]

"The Economics of Extinction" is an interesting topic to spark conversation... I wonder how much people would be willing to pay for a lion or an elephant when they are down to the last few hundred ... some wealthy individual would have no objection, I'm sure.

 

[VSS]

Sorry, wasn't meaning it as shouting, just highlighting.

Qualify "conservation" ? This is not a government wildlife department, selling tickets for cull wild elephants, etc', it's "private companies" selling animals for profit, and unless these companies are breeding to rewild, there is no conservation, anymore than chickens are bred for conservation, other than to be sold for profit. But at least chickens are bred for our food, the same as cattle, or sheep, because currently, we don't appear to have a viable alternative ?

The alternative would see all those animals cleared off the land, and cattle ranching instead.
Whether it's cattle or kudu, the animals are bred for exploitation and profit. The difference is, running native wildlife species for the purpose is less environmentally damaging than cattle ranching.

Obviously it's very different from a truly wild situation, but there should be no shame attached to any landowner trying to manage his land for profit. That's his livelihood. And if he can be insentivised to do so in a way that's environmentally sympathetic (eg, maintaining a gene pool of native species under semi-natural conditions) then it's a win-win for everyone.

As an aside, the UK is one of the most wildlife depleted countries in the world. I don't think we're in a position to lecture other countries about how they should be managing their natural assets.

 

[tackb]

can we hunt pandas since they are too lazy to breed and frankly they're dickheads so no loss if they die out ?

left to their own devices they will die out anyway unless they start getting a bit less celibate..............

 

[Lateral]

The alternative would see all those animals cleared off the land, and cattle ranching instead.
Whether it's cattle or kudu, the animals are bred for exploitation and profit. The difference is, running native wildlife species for the purpose is less environmentally damaging than cattle ranching.

Obviously it's very different from a truly wild situation, but there should be no shame attached to any landowner trying to manage his land for profit. That's his livelihood. And if he can be insentivised to do so in a way that's environmentally sympathetic (eg, maintaining a gene pool of native species under semi-natural conditions) then it's a win-win for everyone.

As an aside, the UK is one of the most wildlife depleted countries in the world. I don't think we're in a position to lecture other countries about how they should be managing their natural assets.

I'm pro hunting
I'm pro legitimate, legal companies making a profit, and I'm not even telling them how to run their business !
I'm certainly not telling a country how to run it's affairs, although some could seriously improve how they do !

I'm purely voicing my opinion, about this type of shooting of animals.......................... If that's what gives a wealthy person a hard on, that's their choice ! Do I respect them as a hunter, or just as a person, not even close !

 

[Emilio]

Sorry, wasn't meaning it as shouting, just highlighting.

Qualify "conservation" ? This is not a government wildlife department, selling tickets for cull wild elephants, etc', it's "private companies" selling animals for profit, and unless these companies are breeding to rewild, there is no conservation, anymore than chickens are bred for conservation, other than to be sold for profit. But at least chickens are bred for our food, the same as cattle, or sheep, because currently, we don't appear to have a viable alternative ?

Again; motivation vs effect. If US cowboys with too much money do not come shooting it is game over (pun intended) for many species on the African continent.
Besides the excesses with dangerous wikdlife and animals on the cites list, there also is a lot of hunting for non endangered slecies like kudu, antilopes etc. I'm guessing these breed without help, so what is the difference with deer in the UK, where guides also take people out stalking to make some money.and select f.i. stags/bucks to take or leave? Or even worse, pheasants being kept?
Hard to draw a clear principle line, that is why these discussions are dangerous. Ammo for the anti's......

 

[norsk]

Again; motivation vs effect. If US cowboys with too much money do not come shooting it is game over (pun intended) for many species on the African continent.
Besides the excesses with dangerous wikdlife and animals on the cites list, there also is a lot of hunting for non endangered slecies like kudu, antilopes etc. I'm guessing these breed without help, so what is the difference with deer in the UK, where guides also take people out stalking to make some money.and select f.i. stags/bucks to take or leave? Or even worse, pheasants being kept?
Hard to draw a clear principle line, that is why these discussions are dangerous. Ammo for the anti's......

I disagree.

If currently the game farms are made to stop Safari's then yes. The locals will eat them all or the Cattle will push them out.

However,if the game farms are paid and the key here is money,to keep managable animal populations then the species could continue to be preserved. Who and how is going to pay I dont know,because currently the main revenue stream is hunting for sport.

Of all the billions that disappear into Africa from the West ,wildlife funding should be an easy one to get the public behind? Remember the "Cecill the Lion" debacle?

 

[Lateral]

Again; motivation vs effect. If US cowboys with too much money do not come shooting it is game over (pun intended) for many species on the African continent.
Besides the excesses with dangerous wikdlife and animals on the cites list, there also is a lot of hunting for non endangered slecies like kudu, antilopes etc. I'm guessing these breed without help, so what is the difference with deer in the UK, where guides also take people out stalking to make some money.and select f.i. stags/bucks to take or leave? Or even worse, pheasants being kept?
Hard to draw a clear principle line, that is why these discussions are dangerous. Ammo for the anti's......

I disagree. Deer in the UK are a growing population, that needs to be controlled, because of the damage to crops, and plant life, that both we, and other animal species rely on for food.

Lions aren't killed for food, even if they do end up as meat.

 

[Emilio]

I disagree. Deer in the UK are a growing population, that needs to be controlled, because of the damage to crops, and plant life, that both we, and other animal species rely on for food.

Lions aren't killed for food, even if they do end up as meat.

Pheasants too, right? And aparantly it is unethical to earn money taking people hunting, so yeah.....

 

[wildfowler.250]

Oh, so "EACH TO THEIR OWN", but we're not allowed to have an opinion, UNLESS it agrees with YOU ????

IF the shooting community want to continue enjoying our sport, we need to be able to discuss different opinions, and views, praise the good, & criticize, if we feel something is less than acceptable ?

If we ignore the public's perception, and opinion of our sport, just how long do you think the politicians will take to jump on the band wagon, and apply further bans ? We, the shooting community are coming under more, and more pressure, to have our guns banned, and I will argue against ANYTHING that "I" feel harms our cause.

And I'm afraid when people keep spouting on about "conservation", most of the time it's total BS. Most of these hunts are run by private companies, where they are just cashing in on wealthy Americans, Japanese, etc', and the only "conservation" is to their bank accounts. It's about BUSINESS, NOT hunting.

Where I went in SA, they were playing with genetics/breeding, to achieve rare coloured Springbok, and charging $200,000.00 so someone could say they'd shot an ultra rare animal ! It's ALL about the money.

I LOVE my sport, and want to make sure it remains, but IMPO, THIS type of hunting is detrimental. That's just "MY" opinion !

Sorry, wasn't meaning it as shouting, just highlighting.

Qualify "conservation" ? This is not a government wildlife department, selling tickets for cull wild elephants, etc', it's "private companies" selling animals for profit, and unless these companies are breeding to rewild, there is no conservation, anymore than chickens are bred for conservation, other than to be sold for profit. But at least chickens are bred for our food, the same as cattle, or sheep, because currently, we don't appear to have a viable alternative ?

The alternative would see all those animals cleared off the land, and cattle ranching instead.
Whether it's cattle or kudu, the animals are bred for exploitation and profit. The difference is, running native wildlife species for the purpose is less environmentally damaging than cattle ranching.

Obviously it's very different from a truly wild situation, but there should be no shame attached to any landowner trying to manage his land for profit. That's his livelihood. And if he can be insentivised to do so in a way that's environmentally sympathetic (eg, maintaining a gene pool of native species under semi-natural conditions) then it's a win-win for everyone.

As an aside, the UK is one of the most wildlife depleted countries in the world. I don't think we're in a position to lecture other countries about how they should be managing their natural assets.

I would tend to say this:

Say yes, guy A just wants to make a profit on a colour variant of springbok. But that hunting area for the springbok is far better for wildlife than a cattle ranch which would be the alternative. So it’s better for conservation even if it’s not guy A’s primary intent.

Converse of that was the last hunting area I saw, the chap was quite frank in that if they weren’t hunting, they’d clear everything else out and move cattle in.

There’s definitely a ‘if it pays it stays’ style. Sable population is a good example of the benefits of hunting.

But I agree as a side note, the hunt itself needs to be ethical.

 

[Emilio]

I disagree.

If currently the game farms are made to stop Safari's then yes. The locals will eat them all or the Cattle will push them out.

However,if the game farms are paid and the key here is money,to keep managable animal populations then the species could continue to be preserved. Who and how is going to pay I dont know,because currently the main revenue stream is hunting for sport.

Of all the billions that disappear into Africa from the West ,wildlife funding should be an easy one to get the public behind? Remember the "Cecill the Lion" debacle?

Irrelevant. The effect is there, cannot be denied and you have no other solutions as far as I can tell. And now?

 

[norsk]

Irrelevant. The effect is there, cannot be denied and you have no other solutions as far as I can tell. And now?

Quite relevant,however I beleive your comprehension of the English language is the actual reason for you missing my point.

Lets put it like this:

There are more people in the west prepared to fund African conservation than there are people who want to shoot African animals for sport.It its much easier to garner public support for not shooting Big Cats,than it is to shoot big Cats.

To argue otherwise is ignorant to the point of stupidity.

 

[John Gryphon]

Do it easy,buy what you can afford and put it on the wall.

My Wildlife SA Auctions - My Wildlife SA

mywildlifesa.com

 

[John Gryphon]

20 grand USD.

SOLD! Black Impala Ram - My Wildlife SA

21 Month old Black Impala Ram available. Sire 22" + Ram. Price loaded in Stella area - 150km from Mafikeng NW @R320 000.

mywildlifesa.com

 

[shakey jake]

Quite relevant,however I beleive your comprehension of the English language is the actual reason for you missing my point.

Lets put it like this:

There are more people in the west prepared to fund African conservation than there are people who want to shoot African animals for sport.It its much easier to garner public support for not shooting Big Cats,than it is to shoot big Cats.

To argue otherwise is ignorant to the point of stupidity.

So what do you think should happen to problem cats?

 

[norsk]

So what do you think should happen to problem cats?

The same that happens to poachers in Africa in conservation area's.

 

[shakey jake]

The same that happens to poachers in Africa in conservation area's.

So is it wrong to sell the chance to shoot a problem cat?

 

[Emilio]

Quite relevant,however I beleive your comprehension of the English language is the actual reason for you missing my point.

Lets put it like this:

There are more people in the west prepared to fund African conservation than there are people who want to shoot African animals for sport.It its much easier to garner public support for not shooting Big Cats,than it is to shoot big Cats.

To argue otherwise is ignorant to the point of stupidity.

I understand perfectly fine what you said and you implying I am too stupid to understand is nonsense as is your whole story. Just a faitytale proven by the countries that do not hunt.
Facts are never ignorant or stupid, ignoring them and insinuating other people are stupid very much is.

 

[Emilio]

So is it wrong to sell the chance to shoot a problem cat?

Depends, look back further. Was there someone causing the problem by placing cats there?

 

[shakey jake]

Depends, look back further. Was there someone causing the problem by placing cats there?

Differnet points, if you dont want to hqve released lions thats one point, stopping big cat hunting is another

 

[Emilio]

Differnet points, if you dont want to hqve released lions thats one point, stopping big cat hunting is another

Whether it is onethical, which was the originally implied, does depend on the origin.of the problem, not on whether it should be adressed.
This does have a crossover with the discussion whether big cat hunting should be stopped. If the hunting causes the problems you can solve them before they occur by stopping the hunting.