I never go past 300m at present so I don't mind that duff info
.223 Reloading Powder and Primers Advise
- Thread starter mt-hunting
- Start date
Works well in your rifle , fine . You must have got data from somewhere though !
It was recommended to me that it is not wise to post charge weights , especially if over recommended maximum . Imagine someone who has little understanding of the reloading processes used this data . They then have a catastrophic fail , due to excessive pressure resulting in injury .
The only winners in the above scenario would be that persons lawyers !
Let's hope that never happens and your belligerence doesn't bite you on the behind .
As i said thats what i use.
Your original post.
Where does it say that ? You posted potentially dangerous data without any caveats . Yet somehow , you think I am still wrong .
As far as I am concerned , this conversation has reached its conclusion .
Read the second section of:
5.56 vs .223 - What You Know May Be Wrong - LuckyGunner.com Labs
on SAAMI and other 223 Rem / 5.56 Nato chamber dimensions / forms.
The operative words are:
".223 Remington ammunition is pressure tested in what is called a “SAAMI Minimum Spec” chamber – that is, a “worst case scenario” chamber in this regard, made to the smallest dimensions, which would result in the highest pressures with any given ammunition. In reality, the likelihood of encountering such a chamber outside a testing lab is incredibly small. Many .223 Remington chambers will see maximum chamber pressures which are several thousand pounds per square inch (PSI) lower than those seen in SAAMI test barrels."
In practice, nearly all if not all sporting rifle manufacturers exceed the [tiny] 25 thou' freebore of SAAMI standard throats, and internal barrel dimensions are often 'slacker' too. People have complained for years that Remington factory 223s for instance neither produce the promised reloading manual or factory ammo MVs, nor can they seat lighter bullets anywhere close to the lands if they try to optimise this factor. Vihtavuori,s as with all manufacturers' data, will be based on a SAAMI spec barrel and chamber, or more likely here the essentially identical CIP specifications.
So given that loads data from powder manufacturers is in essence a guide not an engraved stone tablet brought down from a mountain by a prophet, there is often nothing inherently wrong in exceeding the printed maximum. BUT! ........ with caveats. First, if you quote such a load it MUST be made plain it exceeds the manufacturer's maximum and may produce excessive pressures in a different firearm. Second since the printed max is in reality a guide, it MAY WORK THE OTHER WAY TOO! ie, in some rifles, the suggested factory maximum is too high and over-pressure. For years, people routinely said about Viht max loads, that they're 'lawyer specials' deliberately kept low to cover the company's legal rear. If this was ever true, 308 Win 155gn Sierra MK and Scenar maxima for N140 aside, it is NOT SO today with the company's maxima on the 'hot side' IME for many cartridges.
Thirdly, if you actually bother to read the 'small print' on powder / bullet companies' loads data, the quoted loads refer to the stated components only. Change one item - case make, primer make or model, bullet and you're on your own both safety-wise and legally. That's why buying and reading some good manuals and being able to recognise pressure signs is vital to safe handloading.
Fourthly and finally, 223 Rem is a very small cartridge with low internal case capacity - 29-31 point something grains water. Due to the small size, small changes in powder charge have a very considerable effect on both pressures and MVs. You don't have the leeway you do in say 308 Win. Load development steps need to be small especially when approaching top pressures. The late Glen Zediker's advice (author of The Competitive AR-15 and others) was that when you are within 1gn of top 223 Rem loads, you use 0.2gn weight steps, and as soon as pressure issues arise you drop 0.5gn, not 0.2. Good advice with this cartridge. Also, case makes and even when they were manufactured have a considerable effect on pressure, especially given the large numbers of makes around including production runs made for 5.56mm military ammo, not 223. Even within Lapua and its 223 Rem Match brass, there have been changes over time. My surviving 11/12 year old examples hold 31.0gn water in unsized fireformed form from a minimum 'SAAMI chamber'; current lots hold 30.6/30.7gn and intermediate years' lots run at 30.5gn. That mere half-grain water capacity difference makes a considerable pressure change with any given powder / bullet combination in this cartridge.
So, the morale of this rant is that whilst the quoted load may well be OK in @Gunner223 's components mix and rifle, it may not be others, but even more importantly, 223 Rem is a tricky little b*gg*r, and handloaders need to be aware of the issues and treat it very carefully indeed if intending to maximise its performance.
I'm not sure if you misinterpreted the point that I was making .
The point that the highest charge weight given for a bullet of identical weight and similar construction using N133 was still below Gunner223 's quoted data and that there appears to be no published data for his particular combination . As such , normal protocol would surely dictate starting at minimum recommended and working up , as is the norm .Especially since , I suspect few of us have access to laboratory test facilities .
Whilst a catastrophic fail is highly unlikely as you would expect to see other pressure signs , posting such data without caveats is poor form .
To summarise , reading your last paragraph , we are in agreement.
Right for your info Fox Tales i put down what my load is, it wasn't meant to be a starting point , that does not mean he needs to use it, plenty of other people gave advice, and to be honest i went a lot higher on the load until
i got signs of in accuracy/ pressure signs. ( nobody should do that) and i haven't read a reloading book, maybe I've been lucky. i also load a .308 and a 6.5x47 Lap without problems.
Mt hunting do not try anything ive put on here, how does that sound .
i got signs of in accuracy/ pressure signs. ( nobody should do that) and i haven't read a reloading book, maybe I've been lucky. i also load a .308 and a 6.5x47 Lap without problems.
Mt hunting do not try anything ive put on here, how does that sound .
Right for your info Fox Tales i put down what my load is, it wasn't meant to be a starting point , that does not mean he needs to use it, plenty of other people gave advice, and to be honest i went a lot higher on the load until
i got signs of in accuracy/ pressure signs. ( nobody should do that) and i haven't read a reloading book, maybe I've been lucky. i also load a .308 and a 6.5x47 Lap without problems.
Mt hunting do not try anything ive put on here, how does that sound .
I never feel it's my place to berate others .
I don't think you can ever assume the reader has your level of competency and understanding. I do eyre on the side of caution when it comes to posting data these days.
Believe me when I say,"I have a whole other level of stupid I try to keep under wraps".
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Yes, thank you. I wasn't disagreeing in my opening sentences rather using your words to illustrate that manufacturers' maxima aren't written in stone and may be safely increased (or conversely may be too high for some set-ups). This is particularly so for the 223 Rem given the variety of chambers in use; the huge range of components; the small cartridge size which potentially risks creating disproportionate pressure effects.
I should add when I used the word 'you', I meant the generic 'one' really and wasn't referring to you or your words. Sorry for the confusion.
mt-hunting
Well-Known Member
some very interesting views thanks to all. Safest for sure would be to go with reloading data from say Nosler and the powder manufacturer, and start with the recommended minimum load and work upwards towards the maximum load until the grouping/shot placements are as tight as possible.
scrumbag
Well-Known Member
MT,
A couple of things to (I hope Clarify).
There is a slight trip up between .223 Rem in the US (SAAMI) and UK and other CIP countries as the max pressure for .223 Rem is different.
In the US, SAAMI commercial .223 Rem has a lower pressure than military spec. 5.56x45. In CIP countries, such as the UK, .223 Rem and 5.56x45 have the same working pressures.
I think the best practical example of this is given in the Ramshot reloading data where they give
"223 REMINGTON 55,000 PSI -- STANDARD SAAMI COMMERCIAL SPECIFICATIONS" and further down the page:
"5.56 X 45MM NATO CIP COMMERCIAL AND NATO/MIL SPECIFICATION (62,350 PSI)"
Have a look at something like Ramshot X-Terminator with the same 55gr bullet between those 2 loadings and you can see the difference in charge weights and also speeds.
Personally, I like X-terminator for my 55-62gr loads.
Just some personal advice:
Don't exceed book maximum loads and always work up to a load, even if you know it is within book max as different rifles behave differently - this makes a difference in terms of what is safe to shoot and the most accurate load for your rifle.
Enjoy your reloading and shooting.
Scrummy
IN A 1:8 69 TMK is the bullet of choice. It works like a v max on fur and feather and is excellent. I find N140 powder of choice, Remmington 7.5 primers and Lapua match brass. I use Redding match dies.
If you PM Laurie on here he will advise you. He has forgotten more about reloading for .223 than most of us will ever know.
D
If you PM Laurie on here he will advise you. He has forgotten more about reloading for .223 than most of us will ever know.
D
They were 52 grain Amax made by Hornady for match shootin.
See post 19
The 60gr TMK work a treat on foxy...it's my current recipe alongside 69gr for giggles
Perhaps you should use the royal 'one'.
I can't find VV load data for 55gr Nosler ballistic tip bullets, but if you look at their data for .308, you will find that they show higher charge weights and velocities for 125gr Nosler BTs than for 125gr SMKs. Same weight bullets but different performances.
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