243 fazination???

[Chasey]

MARCBO, I think there is something that those not from the UK fail to recognise, & that is, that the UK shooters tend to lay down in the ground to shoot, & don't appear to do much offhand shooting in thick stuff or shooting at moving animals. I'm still "fazinated" every time I see a Pommie lay down in the dirt or mud to shoot at something even if its just 50 yards away. This does give them a greater degree of accuracy for the first shot if the animal is performing, & I guess they must have the self discipline to decline all those raking shots that would be effective with larger calibers that we would consider more suitable. I notice also that there is a strong culture around "Market hunting", & cash at the dealers is very important to UK stalkers, there really is a very different culture between deer "stalking" in the UK & what we practice in other parts of the world.

Sharkey

Not often we get the chance to lay down to take a shot? Mostly its stood upright shooting off sticks or resting against a tree.

Often hard to get a safe shot standing up let alone laying down and shooting flat or up hill?

Maily I'd avoid using a large calaber to avoid meet damage and to get a flatter shot to reduce hold over on varaible range shots

 

[Dalua]

Last night I was perusing an old copy of Cartridges of the World and noticed a large number of 0.244 caliber carrtidge of UK origin with similiar ballistics to the winchester. How come there is no nationalist pride favorinig these?

I really can't imagine! But hang on a moment:
perhaps because
the only rifles chambered for them are doubles costing over £100K or weird rifles from the '60s with 26" barrels that are shot-out after a box or two of cartridges and which have 'sopes sights machined into to their receivers.
they require bullets of an odd diameter
No-one stocks the ammuniton, brass or dies, or knows how much of which powders to load them with
but perhaps mainly because they have no significant ballistic advantage over the excellent and universally-available .243 Winchester?

Declaration of interest:
My father has a .243, but I don't. I think I might ask whether I can borrow it, though!

Not often we get the chance to lay down to take a shot? Mostly its stood upright shooting off sticks or resting against a tree.

Perhaps Sharkey has mainly encountered hill-stalkers?

 

[sharkey]

Perhaps Sharkey has mainly encountered hill-stalkers?

If they were shooting at a hill I'm sure they could hit it. As for walking up one?

Sharkey

 

[MARCBO]

Ok, I have to ask, What is a pommie?

SS

 

[Mungo]

Ok, I have to ask, What is a pommie?

SS

Australian mildly derogatory term for English person. Essentially their version of 'limey'. I've never seen a convincing explanation of the origin, the the one I like most has it that english fresh off the boat all go bright red in the sun - hence look like apples (pommes).

 

[MARCBO]

Australian mildly derogatory term for English person. Essentially their version of 'limey'. I've never seen a convincing explanation of the origin, the the one I like most has it that english fresh off the boat all go bright red in the sun - hence look like apples (pommes).

The Germans do that as well when they arrive here in the SouthWest....

SS

 

[Chasey]

Australian mildly derogatory term for English person. Essentially their version of 'limey'. I've never seen a convincing explanation of the origin, the the one I like most has it that english fresh off the boat all go bright red in the sun - hence look like apples (pommes).

I thaught it was a referance to potatos (Pomm da tare)


EDIT aparently not

 

[Chasey]

There are several folk etymologies for Pommy or Pom. The best-documented of these is that pommy originated as a contraction of "pomegranate".[SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP] According to this explanation, "pomegranate" was Australian rhyming slang for "immigrant" ("Jimmy Grant").[SUP][13][/SUP] Usage of "pomegranate" for English people may have been strengthened by a belief in Australia that sunburn occurred more frequently among English immigrants, turning those with fair skin the colour of pomegranates.[SUP][14][/SUP] Another explanation – now generally considered to be a false etymology – was that "pom" or "pommy" were derived from an acronym such as POM ("Prisoner of Millbank"), POME ("Prisoner of Mother England") or POHMS ("Prisoner Of Her Majesty's Service").[SUP][15][/SUP] However, there is no evidence that such terms, or their acronyms, were used in Australia when "pom" and "pommy" entered use there.

 

[gixer1]

Yeah, its the same as us when we talk about convict's.....that pretty much covers Australians....

 

[Dalua]

There are several folk etymologies for Pommy or Pom. The best-documented of these is that pommy originated as a contraction of "pomegranate".[SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP] According to this explanation, "pomegranate" was Australian rhyming slang for "immigrant" ("Jimmy Grant").[SUP][13][/SUP] Usage of "pomegranate" for English people may have been strengthened by a belief in Australia that sunburn occurred more frequently among English immigrants, turning those with fair skin the colour of pomegranates.[SUP][14][/SUP] Another explanation – now generally considered to be a false etymology – was that "pom" or "pommy" were derived from an acronym such as POM ("Prisoner of Millbank"), POME ("Prisoner of Mother England") or POHMS ("Prisoner Of Her Majesty's Service").[SUP][15][/SUP] However, there is no evidence that such terms, or their acronyms, were used in Australia when "pom" and "pommy" entered use there.

It's number 428, but here it is - an informative and interesting post on this thread!

 

[willie_gunn]

It's number 428, but here it is - an informative and interesting post on this thread!

For something more definitive than Wikipedia you could always go to the Oxford Dictionary of Slang, whose definition is:

Pommy, pommie, pom (1912): Mainly Australian and New Zealand; often applied specifically to an English immigrant; possibly short for obsolete pommygrant, a jocular blend of pomegranate and immigrant.

So basically an abbreviation of a portmanteau word (credit for which, as ever, to Lewis Carroll)

Or D H Lawrence and his 1923 book, Kangaroo:

“Pommy is supposed to be short for pomegranate. Pomegranate, pronounced invariably pommygranate, is a near enough rhyme to immigrant, in a naturally rhyming country. Furthermore, immigrants are known in their first months, before their blood ‘thins down’, by their round and ruddy cheeks. So we are told. Hence again, pomegranate, and hence Pommy. Let etymologists be appeased: it is the authorised derivation.”

 

[I. Farticus]

Dom, you've always got to raise the tone!

 

[MARCBO]

The 243 would probably be more than adequate for taking of pommies, the fruit of course!!!

SS

 

[tackb]

Wasn't it the big rufty tufty yanks that made nato change to 5.56 from 7.62 ?

 

[Dalua]

Wasn't it the big rufty tufty yanks that made nato change to 5.56 from 7.62 ?

I think so: but, rather bizarrely, only after they'd scuppered our lovely .280 intermediate round and its associated bullpup rifle with their insistance on a good ol' .30 as the standard round of the free West.

 

[sharkey]

Usage of "pomegranate" for English people may have been strengthened by a belief in Australia that sunburn occurred more frequently among English immigrants, turning those with fair skin the colour of pomegranates.[SUP][14][/SUP]

"A belief". No its a fact. One easily qualified by a trip to any "tourist beach" like Manly or Bondi. The Aussie sun is harsh on fresh Pommie skin. It's not funny at all seeing these puffy cooked lobsters & I feel sorry for them until their skin hardens up & gets some colour.

A thread drift from psychology, machoism/feminism & now to a pommies complexion. The pope gun never fails to raise a discussion.

Sharkey

 

[MARCBO]

I think so: but, rather bizarrely, only after they'd scuppered our lovely .280 intermediate round and its associated bullpup rifle with their insistance on a good ol' .30 as the standard round of the free West.

The EM-2 rifle proposed for the 280 was not ready for prime time back in the 1950's. Hell when it (EM-2) was finally introduced for the 5.56 as the L85 it was still not. Eventually the German's were able to make the L85 work somewhat but I note the SAS prefers the M16 based guns.

Change was driven by ammunion and weapon weight. By going to the 5.56 the individual combat load went to 210 rounds (7 magazines of 30) vs the 100 rounds (5 magazines of 20) usually carried with the M14. Now though the theater of operations has changed with longer engagement ranges than those of the wars in the 1950's/60s and many US troops are again using the 7.62 in whatever rifles they can get. I personally know soldiers who have used M14s/FALs/G3s recently in combat and of course the SpecOp units have the SCAR-H.

BTW: Winston C. is the guy that "scuppered" the 280 to standardize with NATO.

 

[ejg]

Marcbo how would you rate the G3? I thought they shot really well out to 300m. I used 9mm Uzi, G3 and MG3 in my short stint in the army. Later I had a chance to shoot the Swiss STG 90 in 5.6 which also performed really well however I never shot M16/M14 to compare.
edi

 

[MARCBO]

Marcbo how would you rate the G3? I thought they shot really well out to 300m. I used 9mm Uzi, G3 and MG3 in my short stint in the army. Later I had a chance to shoot the Swiss STG 90 in 5.6 which also performed really well however I never shot M16/M14 to compare.
edi

I really like the G3, especially the 14.4 inch barreled version with collapsible stock. The 10th Special Forces Group bought a number during the Cold War but they werr never issued, politics.... The two down sides were the muzzle blast with the short barrel and the 2nd generation collapsible stock with the reverse curve buttplate. I have several frineds in Germany with the civilian version sold as the "officer's model" and they are very accurate despite the short barrel.

We also had MG3's that I like alot but the MAG58 is more practical for troops that have to carry their weapons with it's slower cyclic.

The UZI is a 1950's design that is very reliable but cannot be compared the more modern design. FWIW: The CAR15 with either the 10.5 or the 11.5 inch barrels were classifed as SMGs.

I have not fired the STG 90 but have quite a bit of experience with the SIG 556 series. Great guns but too expensive.

The M16/M4 have been in service now for more than 50 years so the design is pretty solid. Although the gas pistol versions are cleaner I don't consider it worth the additional cost especially not for a civilian who can clean his rifle as often as required without risking life and limb.

The M14 is a pretty robust design but production was actually halted because of quality issues, not becasue the M16 was beigng adopt. Great explanation in the book The Great Rifle Controversy" by CLinton Ezell.

 

[Dalua]

BTW: Winston C. is the guy that "scuppered" the 280 to standardize with NATO.

It was sensible, unavoidable even, to standardise with NATO.
Was it as sensible of NATO to insist on a full-fat .30 to standardise on?