375H&H - Good reason and UK use?

[Magnificent 7]

Need is not the same as "good reason".
Some of us hobby stalkers go abroad regularly so why shouldn't we use these larger calibres for UK deer.
I could argue that all we need is a ,243 for the Uk.
This kind of narrow minded post depresses me.
I never fail to be amazed by the ignorance and narrow mindedness shown in our sport by so many.
In a recent post discussing this calibre some ignorant suggested we need a better backstop for it than other cartridges!
The enemy within.

The enemy’s among us they get knocked back because really they have t a good reason for a 243 but yet put in for large calibres.Then become bitter because others whom have perfect good reason for it get it.Tbh the 375 wouldn’t be my first choice on uk stuff it’s big and slow but for a rutting red or sika in woodland it does what it says on the tin.

 

[Selous]

The reason for using larger calls on uk quarry is to maintain familiarity with calibres that are used less frequently abroad. This is supported in the home office guidance
12.37
Some rifles intended for antelope and other plains game may also be suitable for deer, boar or other quarry shooting in this country. Once initial “good reason” has been established for a rifle in shooting “dangerous game”, it may also be considered for shooting the larger deer species and boar in Britain.

 

[Dickie]

The reason for using larger calls on uk quarry is to maintain familiarity with calibres that are used less frequently abroad. This is supported in the home office guidance
12.37
Some rifles intended for antelope and other plains game may also be suitable for deer, boar or other quarry shooting in this country. Once initial “good reason” has been established for a rifle in shooting “dangerous game”, it may also be considered for shooting the larger deer species and boar in Britain.

Yep the problem is it’s guidance and as we know means nothing and they make it up as they go along.

 

[Selous]

Yep the problem is it’s guidance and as we know means nothing and they make it up as they go along.

You are quite correct that it is guidance, however there are sections that indicate law that they are mandated to follow. One important section is 12.6 that indicates very firmly that they should first consider things from your perspective and not from the point of view as an objector. Having any blanket policy to deny is not permitted.
12.6 Good reason” should be neither confined to need nor equated with desire. Most firearm certificate holders possess firearms for reasons of their profession, sport, collectors or recreation, and may properly wish to exercise discretion as to what types of firearms they choose for these purposes. On the other hand, a simple wish to own a particular sort of firearm is not in itself “good reason” without further supporting evidence of intentions. Chief officers should be mindful of case law (Anderson v Neilans (1940) and Joy v Chief Constable of Dumfries and Galloway (1966)) which suggests that the chief officer should consider the application firstly “from the standpoint of the applicant rather than from that of a possible objector”. “Good reason” will need to be demonstrated for each firearm to be held under section 1 of the 1968 Act

 

[njc110381]

You are quite correct that it is guidance, however there are sections that indicate law that they are mandated to follow. One important section is 12.6 that indicates very firmly that they should first consider things from your perspective and not from the point of view as an objector. Having any blanket policy to deny is not permitted.
12.6 Good reason” should be neither confined to need nor equated with desire. Most firearm certificate holders possess firearms for reasons of their profession, sport, collectors or recreation, and may properly wish to exercise discretion as to what types of firearms they choose for these purposes. On the other hand, a simple wish to own a particular sort of firearm is not in itself “good reason” without further supporting evidence of intentions. Chief officers should be mindful of case law (Anderson v Neilans (1940) and Joy v Chief Constable of Dumfries and Galloway (1966)) which suggests that the chief officer should consider the application firstly “from the standpoint of the applicant rather than from that of a possible objector”. “Good reason” will need to be demonstrated for each firearm to be held under section 1 of the 1968 Act

That's the thing though isn't it. Justifying that you truly "need" a .375H&H for UK use is open to a lot of angles of debate. My argument when I went for my big bore was that use of the rifle needs to be instinctive in a dangerous game situation. You can't just buy a boomer, chuck it in the safe and take it to the range now and again to knock the sense out of yourself. All that will achieve is you owning a rifle that you're not competent with and might even be afraid of because a string of shots every time you use it has caused you to think that it'll hurt you. When you're faced with a charging buffalo for example, that rifle needs to be just like your deer rifle back home - like an extension of yourself.

I put that argument forward with my force and after a bit of adjustment of what I was asking for vs what they were happy with, I bought a .416 Rigby that they had listed for AOLQ. I wanted a .458 Lott but they didn't like that, which I suppose going by the guidelines is getting up there into the true big bores at over .45 calibre. I actually think they did me a favour, the .416's are far better all rounders for a one gun trip to Africa and the .375's are even better than that if more plains game than dangerous animals are on the cards.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Quite a few “big cat” sightings of late so one should always be prepared to leave the ever-wonderful 243 in the cabinet on such occasions.

K

 

[Heym SR20]

Dangerous game calibres such as 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 lott, 470 etc are no more dangerous to the general public than the .22 Hornet.

It’s down to the individual behind the rifle.

 

[Selous]

Dangerous game calibres such as 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 lott, 470 etc are no more dangerous to the general public than the .22 Hornet.

It’s down to the individual behind the rifle.

Very true, an idiot with an air pistol is more dangerous than a skilled and careful shooter with a 470 Nitro Express

 

[Klenchblaize]

Very true, an idiot with an air pistol is more dangerous than a skilled and careful shooter with a 470 Nitro Express

Which brings us right back to FEO’s adopting a pragmatic approach based largely on their assessment of the person applying for the calibre & condition.

K

 

[Heym SR20]

Which brings us right back to FEO’s adopting a pragmatic approach based largely on their assessment of the person applying for the calibre & condition.

K

In other words they should follow the new home office guidelines.

 

[zambezi]

and the .375's are even better than that if more plains game than dangerous animals are on the cards.

100% agree. I use my .375 on both DG and PG.

Very good performance in both cases. Minimal carcass trauma, humane despatch.

The reason for using larger calls on uk quarry is to maintain familiarity with calibres that are used less frequently abroad. This is supported in the home office guidance
12.37
Some rifles intended for antelope and other plains game may also be suitable for deer, boar or other quarry shooting in this country. Once initial “good reason” has been established for a rifle in shooting “dangerous game”, it may also be considered for shooting the larger deer species and boar in Britain.

That guidance is unambiguous, and I quoted same to my FEO as I hunt boar in the UK. Their response? "Your 30.06 is adequate for boar." Sure. In the same way both a 3-wood and a driver will get you on the fairway. However, some of the boar taken in the FoD are BIG. And YouTube often has lurid clips of boar attack outcomes on humans. Wisdom says use the tool that assures the most emphatic outcome, not the minimum.

[So the .375 remains conditioned for overseas use on quarry with only domestic zeroing/load development allowed]

It really is a lottery whether you live in a UK FAC-issuing jurisdiction amenable to reason or not. And whereas the guidance was clearly written by an experienced user of firearms, regional licensing policy seems to be authored by those who weigh other matters more highly. [politics?]

 

[Dickie]

100% agree. I use my .375 on both DG and PG.

Very good performance in both cases. Minimal carcass trauma, humane despatch.




That guidance is unambiguous, and I quoted same to my FEO as I hunt boar in the UK. Their response? "Your 30.06 is adequate for boar." Sure. In the same way both a 3-wood and a driver will get you on the fairway. However, some of the boar taken in the FoD are BIG. And YouTube often has lurid clips of boar attack outcomes on humans. Wisdom says use the tool that assures the most emphatic outcome, not the minimum.

[So the .375 remains conditioned for overseas use on quarry with only domestic zeroing/load development allowed]

It really is a lottery whether you live in a UK FAC-issuing jurisdiction amenable to reason or not. And whereas the guidance was clearly written by an experienced user of firearms, regional licensing policy seems to be authored by those who weigh other matters more highly. [politics?]

It is indeed a postcode lottery.

 

[Smokedude]

Shame I didn’t win the 195m I’d argue the point

 

[lordmarston]

Indeed. Those 21 people may well have spent money on the strength of the grant of that condition. A partial revocation that renders a dual-purpose rifle unusable in this country is surely deeply unfair.

I'd take them to court they would loose as long as you have good a reason

 

[308tikka]

No one needs a .375 in the U.K.

says who ?

 

[308tikka]

100% agree. I use my .375 on both DG and PG.

Very good performance in both cases. Minimal carcass trauma, humane despatch.




That guidance is unambiguous, and I quoted same to my FEO as I hunt boar in the UK. Their response? "Your 30.06 is adequate for boar." Sure. In the same way both a 3-wood and a driver will get you on the fairway. However, some of the boar taken in the FoD are BIG. And YouTube often has lurid clips of boar attack outcomes on humans. Wisdom says use the tool that assures the most emphatic outcome, not the minimum.

[So the .375 remains conditioned for overseas use on quarry with only domestic zeroing/load development allowed]

It really is a lottery whether you live in a UK FAC-issuing jurisdiction amenable to reason or not. And whereas the guidance was clearly written by an experienced user of firearms, regional licensing policy seems to be authored by those who weigh other matters more highly. [politics?]

In your specific case Id be tempted to sell 30-06, have .375HH conditioned for AOLQ and buy something else below 30-06 for non-boar....

If they wont follow HOG then use their words to advantage your demonstrated good reason.

 

[finnbear270]

No one needs a .375 in the U.K. but I guess it’s fun to use once in a while but I’d guess it’s more hobby stalkers who want to use one over here.

My local force would do it I think but variations take nearly a year I wouldn’t dare

Comments like yours only serve to manacle others.

 

[Jagare]

I'm all for people having what ever caliber of rifle that is legal for deer. But lets cut the bull sh1t. Why are there many .375 H&H on gun dealers shelves with very low shot counts? Is it because for many they arn't very comfortable to shoot. The ammo is expensive and these are two reasons are why people don't practice enough to be competent with them. I'm 6' 1" and 15 stone and the last rifle I would want to lug over the hills of Scotland is a .375 H&H.
The largest boar can be kill easily with .308, .30-06 and many other calibers in that class. Same with the 9.3x74R V the 8x57Jrs The 8 mm will kill any boar all day long and be much more comfortable to shoot and practice with than the 9x74R.
If I was going to Africa a .375 would be on my list.
When ever I see a S/H magnum rifle on the shelf at my LGS its amazing in what good condition they are, often like new. I wonder why that is?
Also a having a .375 H&H for UK or European hunting does not give you a bigger willy.

 

[308tikka]

I'm all for people having what ever caliber of rifle that is legal for deer. But lets cut the bull sh1t. Why are there many .375 H&H on gun dealers shelves with very low shot counts? Is it because for many they arn't very comfortable to shoot. The ammo is expensive and these are two reasons are why people don't practice enough to be competent with them. I'm 6' 1" and 15 stone and the last rifle I would want to lug over the hills of Scotland is a .375 H&H.
The largest boar can be kill easily with .308, .30-06 and many other calibers in that class. Same with the 9.3x74R V the 8x57Jrs The 8 mm will kill any boar all day long and be much more comfortable to shoot and practice with than the 9x74R.
If I was going to Africa a .375 would be on my list.
When ever I see a S/H magnum rifle on the shelf at my LGS its amazing in what good condition they are, often like new. I wonder why that is?
Also a having a .375 H&H for UK or European hunting does not give you a bigger willy.

My .375HH is indeed close to new as far and frankly very cheap, as the metalwork is concerned, will be used in Africa and the UK on AOLQ. As for willies I really dont need any extra mass to carry when walking up and down the hills.

 

[Jagare]

My .375HH is indeed close to new as far and frankly very cheap, as the metalwork is concerned, will be used in Africa and the UK on AOLQ. As for willies I really dont need any extra mass to carry when walking up and down the hills.

A few years back there was a .375 H&H flanged double rifle on the shelf at my LGS at a very good price. A new Krieghoff classic with game scene engraving. I was very tempted but after reading up about the .375 flanged the opinion was it was not a great caliber for boar with the available ammo. If it was for a trip to Africa I would have bought it. Reload people would say? Reloading for my 8x57jrs I must have shot between 200-300 shots working up loads that shot well in the double. If I was working up a load for the .375 I'm sure the novelty would very soon wear off.
I had a .300 win-mag many years ago. Seemed like a good idea at the time. It was not unpleasant to shoot and quite good fun. A realisation slowly dawned on me, why was i lugging around a .300 win mag that cost more to reload and did not kill UK deer any deader than my .243 or .308 both being cheaper to reload as well and nicer to carry round.