6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer

[Apthorpe]

This is what I've been using (only after polishing them up a bit).

For the geeky, they are quite different from more modern rounds.
The Kynoch is 3.145" overall length, whereas some more recent, but still old, 140gr Hirtenbergers are 2.956" and new Hornady Interlock 160gr RNs seated to the cannelure are a similar length of around 2.920" - 2.975" (depending how far along it is seated).
The Kynoch and Hirtenberger bullets are also more parallel-sided than the Hornadys which I was surprised to find are only .264" close the base of the bullet and taper to around .255" towards (but before) the nose/ogive. I'm not sure how well these set in the rifling, but time will tell.

 

[Greener Jim]

I am sure the hornady bullets will work lovely. You'll get less pressure with them as well. However, both of those statements depend on your barrel so try them, work up slowly, and you won't have a problem...I just hope they're accurate.

 

[deeangeo]

Hornady 160gn RN Interlock bullets are what I'm currently working up a load for with my MSch 1903.
Got to say nothing exciting to report & haven't yet got better than 1 1/4" MOA @ 100yds.
Currently at 40gns IMR4350 & no pressure signs showing at all.
OAL @ 3.01" with a Lee factory die crimp just a midges dick below the cannelure.
My barrel is 23" with 1-8 twist.

Going to try a propellant switch to either H4895 or IMR3031 & see where that takes me....hopefully to 1" MOA.

 

[Apthorpe]

I've been waiting to follow your example. There seem to be several sources for recipes with 4350 and the Interlock RN 160s. I was a bit surprised to find the Kynoch ammo so much longer than modern loads seem to be. I might try loading a few to that length and will report the results.
My 1903 has a 26" barrel and I presume a standard twist so I'll see how it goes.
Fired off a couple of Hirtenberger (Nosler) 140 rounds at the weekend and found they wouldn't feed. The nose wasn't round / blunt enough to raise the bullet on the ramp and the tip just jammed on the ramp. Not a very useful feature for pointier bullets. Also fired a couple more Kynochs. Really not very good results @125yds at all.

 

[Greener Jim]

Athough I see your point, 1.25"@100 yards isn't great, I would say it depends a lot on how you were shooting. What position were you shooting from? If shooting off sticks were they quad or twin? Was the barrel left to cool between shots?
If those groups were shot prone with a cold barrel for each shot then load development is a good shout.
If they were shot off sticks then I would say that's very good.
If the barrel was allowed to get too hot then all bets are off!
Either way 1.25", presuming the group was where you wanted it to be, is more than acceptable for hunting with.

Aphorpe, what groups did you get at 125 yards and from what position? To be honest I wouldn't be testing accuracy at that range. I'd be starting at 50 or 60 yards, off sticks, and working out further till I can no longer put the bullet where I want or groups become unacceptable then dip it back 10 yards and that's my max hunting range. 125 yards is pretty far for irons.

 

[deeangeo]

I've been testing loads from a bench, hand holding against a shooting bag Jim. Doing so allows consistent load testing/development, so in a fairly comfortable non-field shooting position.
I have taken the rifle into the field shooting feral goats successfully earlier this year.
However, although the load is 'just about' accepetable at moderate range in the field, it's not really what I'm after, so now I want to improve the load further.

The barrel has never been allowed to get too hot. Three rounds, then cool off completely for half an hour or so.

 

[Apthorpe]

Jim,
There's a good reason I didn't specify the groups I was getting! I shot about 4" group but several inches off to the left. Totally useless for hunting.

I wasn't really testing bullet accuracy but my own hunting accuracy at that range. I was shooting prone in a windy hillside field using a rucksack as a rest. The rucksack wasn't full enough, and I don't have any other excuses. It wasn't really an exercise in establishing ammo accuracy but in finding the limits of my hunting accuracy (which now lies somewhere between 90 and 125yds). The main problem I had (other than incompetence) was that the bead is pretty much the same size as the target at that sort of range.
I haven't had enough supply of ammo to test/ practise comprehensively yet. I'm hoping several dozen rounds of practice will result in some improvement. If not, it just provides the excuse for getting a modern scoped rifle sometime.

 

[Heym SR20]

Windy hillside - well I recall the old service manuals we had as cadets for the 303 showed wind drift of 4" at 100 yds from a 10 mph cross wind. 10 moh is not a lot of wind - grass is starting to blow about.

For open sights by far the best target is an inverted T with the arms being 2 or 3 inches wide. bring the bead up till it nestles at the junction of the T and squeeze. On deer - come up the foreleg until you reach the body, and then just a bit more. Most open sights should print the point of impact just above the bead.

 

[Greener Jim]

Apthorpe, you say the front bead is the same size as the target at that range, I'm going to ask a question and I don't wish to teach you to suck eggs or in any way come across as patronising. Do you aim with the target resting on top of the bead or behind it?
I am referring to the 6 o'clock hold which should look like this (grey blob is the target)
View attachment 74802

Just noticed that Heym has said similar.

 

[Apthorpe]

Thanks Heym,
I wouldn't have thought of using an inverted T and will try that.

Jim,
Also thanks for the advice. My sight picture looks more or less like:
Essentially the bead slightly obscures the lower part of the target such that the centre is immediately on top of the bead. This seems to produce adequate vertical results. My problem is mainly horizontal wiggliness. Either I'm doing something wrong while firing (quite probable) or I'm not distinguishing slight lateral differences in the sight picture (also likely). I have had very little practice with it, and suspect that an afternoon of two of practice will allow me to resolve or reduce the issues....once this shell holder arrives!!

Both of your advice much appreciated, thanks!

 

[Greener Jim]

You're very much welcome. Anyone willing to put the effort in and hunt with no magnification is alright in my book!

Regards the lateral shift, have you considered a very thin vertical white line painted at the bottom of your V? Like this
View attachment 74804
Should allow your eye to centre the bead easier.

As you said, with oractice it will improve. Shooting at 100 yards with no magnification isn't easy but that's the point. Persevere and you'll get there.

 

[Apthorpe]

I have a VERY thin vertical white line, but it is a bit faded through age and not especially conspicuous.
Hoping to do some practice next weekend and will let you know how it goes. Must remember to take some photos of the rifle to send you as promised.

 

[Greener Jim]

That's the key mate, as they say "beginners practice till they get it right, professionals practice till they don't get it wrong"
My upcoming rifle purchase will wear a red dot sight, I considered a scope sure but I just like how a rifle feels without all that weight up top. I will have to practice just as much as you to get to a stage where I am proficient with it enough to take it after deer.

Once that practice is put in you and I will both be effective, even if not efficient, hunters and, you more than I, will have that purity which I feel can be lacking.

I would very much like to see the rifle but there is no rush, good luck with the practice mate.

 

[Southern]

A white line or white pyramid on the rear leaf is useful with a flat white front bead when hunting in dark forests and against a dark target, like a boar, buffalo or bear.

The most important thing is to find a firm position on the comb which helps you focus the rear sight to sharpen the front sight. This effect is well-known with aperture sights, but it is in effect with open sights as well, if they are properly matched in size and shape. When you find that position towards the sights, it will become easy to center up the front sight side to side and vertically in the notch. Your eyes will naturally try to center it in order to take the fuzz off the side which is too close to notch.

 

[deeangeo]

I have a VERY thin vertical white line, but it is a bit faded through age and not especially conspicuous.
Hoping to do some practice next weekend and will let you know how it goes. Must remember to take some photos of the rifle to send you as promised.

You could probably bring the white line back to life using tippex. Paint it on & wipe the excess off when its dry.
Should look nice & fresh once again & repeat as required.

 

[Kalahari]

A nice platinum inlay is the real answer but we are in to Westley Richards territory for this. Although I think Scrumbag had it done in Geneva on his 9.3 x 62. Didn't ask how much it cost as I wasn't sitting down at the time.

David.

 

[greenshoots]

any thoughts on shooting 6.5 lead thru this rifle

greenshoots

 

[Apthorpe]

Guys,
Tippex?? Seriously? Have you tried this? It sounds like a serious random departure from the hitherto fantastic quality of your advice. I'm unlikely to try this.
Platinum inlay...I like the idea of but there is a risk of marital discord if the first item lavished with platinum is a gun not a wife.
Greenshoots...i feel a bit thick for not understanding the question. Sorry.

 

[Greener Jim]

Greenshoots is referring to cast lead bullets

 

[Kalahari]

Actually the Tippex idea is good because you can put it on and try the effect and if you don't like it you can remove it with a fingernail. If you like the effect you can go for a more permanent solution.

David.